rationalising and the concept of amnesty

[ramatama]

Perhaps this topic belongs in the main general one...let's see...
if so, one of us will ask a mod to move it there?

I was cleaning up after dinner last night and I was thinking about the leftovers, and how if there are enough leftovers to be one portion, I will save it, but if less, I will toss it and not think about it at all anymore.
If I find a jar in the fridge that has signs of mold, out it goes, glass jar and all, mostly I won't even save the jar in that case.

But when it comes to non-perishables, my thoughts are different:
If it is string, it goes to the shoebox of string, a rubber band, then it goes to bag of rubber bands; I take off the shoelaces of shoes that are ruined otherwise and save those, I take off the buttons of a shirt that I turn into rags, etc etc, you get the idea...

I KNOW it is 80% unlikely that i will listen to music cassettes from 3 decades ago, but there they sit taking up room in a drawer next to an old casste player in the living room.
I don't want to discuss how to recover music- that is not the point-

I want to try and figure out why my brain does this weird rationalisation about when to just chuck something out and when at other times, I save other stuff that is just as expensive or inexpensive. Some might be learned behaviour, but other times?

How do those of you who have just got rid of pefectly good things (without recycling, giving away or donating) rationalise/talk yourselves into doing just that?

I have, in the past, put myself in my DD's position, imagine myself dead, what would she want to keep, have use of, want to sell?
but it doesn't work for me anymore.

At what point do you stop donating, recycling and just chuck?
If I were to do this, it would have to do without my DH seeing me do it. BTW, "the 1970's encyclopedia" is still here...was scheduled to go to paper recycling but was reshelved

[Ally]

Rama,
I have been and still am the same way, although I would salvage those food containers too, soak with a little bleach... and they're good to go.
Now buttons are removed to make rag more functional as a rag, but buttons more are not being saved, I already have a box full. One exception I might make: If my husband still wore dress shirts, which he doesn't, I might save some of those buttons to replace lost/broken buttons from his shirts.

Yes, I save every paperclip... but am not as organized about it as you. I don't usually save shoelaces, but have done that in the past. Usually if the shoes are worn out, so are the shoe laces.
Confession: I do have several shoe laces mixed in with my squalor, and some of them are "perfectly good" and I probably would have kept them, but I'm trying to release those things now. (For a while back maybe 15 to 20 years ago, sometimes sneakers came with 2 sets of laces in different colors so you could use one or the other or both, so I have mint green, and purple, and blue shoelaces. They would make good drawstrings for a laundry bag, and I do sew... but how many do I need to keep? and if I do keep them, I must have a place for them, which I don't at this point in time.

[lostagain]

I struggle with this too - for me it is more about the memory associated with the object than its usefulness. What has helped me with things that are "still good" is get all things that are alike together (sounds like you're doing that already) and allot them a certain space, so you have a box of string, once that is full, then toss the rest. Also it can be helpful to think, can I easily replace this? For me that is a difficult question because then it brings up how much do I trust myself, to be able to get that in the future. Just wanted you to know you're not alone!

[Di]

String: it's cheap I DESERVE to be able to cut a NEW piece exactly the length I want it. You deserve the same.

Shoelaces: Again, they are inexpensive, they are not worth the space they take up or the effort it takes to store/organize them.....besides, they would probably be the wrong length if by chance they and shoes needing laces were ever in the same place at the same time...

Buttons: I sew. I HAVE a button stash that needs to be reduced. ...besides unless the buttons are something spectacular like hand carved mother-of-pearl I am not going to reuse them....

It has taken self and I many years of arguing to get to this point. But basically I have convinced Self that I am worth it. I deserve new convenient items. I don't have to ALWAYS make do.

[dtesposito]

ramatama, I just have to think about and repeat the lines to myself each time I want to save something--and really think about them! Lines like "how many of these will I ever need" or "when was the last time I used these".

For specific type of items I've gotten rid of I had to go through the thought process like this: I have about 500 plastic grocery bags in this cabinet. I fill up maybe 4 a week with garbage. I use another 2 or 3 a week on miscellaneous things--to hold a wet umbrella, to put an item in that I'm bringing to someone. That's 7 bags a week. When I shop, since I make a lot of short stops to stores for a couple of items at a time, I almost always bring home 6 or 7 new bags a week. That means I'm pretty much bringing home as many bags as I use. So even if I had a bag emergency and had to use 10 or 15 bags at once one week, I still have at least 475 more bags than I'll ever use here. It's okay to stop saving them! In fact, I can get rid of some of the 500 bags. There will always be more bags available, I don't need to have years worth of plastic bags taking up an entire cabinet.

Then, repeat for each item you're saving. Has the supply of each thing gotten larger over the years? That means you're saving more than you need of it--estimate how many you need in an average week or month or year, then compare that against what you have.

Also, take a look at some of the items that are the oldest. For example, rubber bands get old--they dry out, are no longer stretchy, and when you try to use them they break. The same might actually be true of some of your cassette tapes, if they haven't been played for a while and have been through temperature extremes. And as I found out, even paper stationery stored in a file cabinet in an apartment can get a moldy smell after a while. Looking at what you've saved in as realistic a way as you can might help you realize that after several years your treasure turns into trash.

I too have had trouble letting good things go, I've always thought the best thing to do is recycle, reuse, etc. But there's a limit, and the limit is when the stuff is making you miserable by taking up all the spare room in your house.

It's a habit to hang onto things, and we can also develop the habit to stop and question each time we want to keep something. Sometimes I still want to keep something that's illogical. But most of the time if I think it through, I can let things go. It's important to keep trying, because these mental changes happen gradually, you have to practice them. I'm still learning how to do it with my books, my last hoarded category--and I admit that it takes a lot of effort. It's so worth it, though.

Diane

[dtesposito]

I also meant to say that it helps to look at the big picture. It sounds like even if you know you can't use all of the items, it's the actual tossing of them that's hard for you--but think of it this way--when you die, the stuff will still be unused, and THEN it will be tossed. No one will come to your apartment and say, wow, I'm so glad there are all these pieces of used string here, I really need them. So it might as well be you who throws them out, so you can enjoy the clear space while you are still here!

If you're a recycler, you're probably doing more for the planet than 98% of the other people on it, so you shouldn't feel bad about throwing away the stuff that there is no use for. It's an imperfect world, we can try to make it a little better but we can't singlehandedly save it.

Diane

[ClutterBlind]

I think this may also be a situation similar to the favorite sticky thread, "Buying things for a life I don't lead," only substitute "Saving things for a life I don't lead." You have to be truthful with yourself and ask how much string bits do you REALLY use? How many old buttons have you put on in the last year or two? How many rubber bands did you use and have you ever run out?

As Dtesposito said, rubber bands have a shelf life. Are you just adding fresh bands onto a pile of useless bands? A mysterious thing usually happens when you actually need a band. You don't reach in and grab one of the fresh bands. For some reason, your hand will land on the old ones that no longer have any elasticity. Even if you carefully pluck one off the top. When you find out the band no longer works is when you are running late, grab the items you have banded and the whole thing breaks apart, landing a mess at your feet, instead of staying in a tidy pile. It's actually good to get rid of the old pile of bands every so often and start a new pile.

As for the encyclopedias from the '70s. When was the last time you pulled it out to consult it? You DO know that much of the info in them may be now considered outdated or inaccurate? Take Sigmund Freud. The info in your encyclopedia probably names him as one of the groundbreaking people in psycho-analysis. But, much of Freud's work has actually been debunked since your encyclopedias were written. He is no longer groundbreaking, no longer accurate, no longer used as NEW ground-breaking technologies have been developed & improved upon. Your books are 4 decades beyond anything groundbreaking. You'd HAVE to consult extra and other sources to cross-reference and get accurate, up-to-date information.

Freud isn't the only example. A whole genre of science called quantum physics has exploded onto the scene. Electrons & protons aren't the smallest particles in the universe anymore. There are fractals & quarks, and probably even smaller bits since I last read. Pluto is no longer considered a planet, yet we have discovered a few other planets added onto our solar system. Mumbai is the new name for Bombay, India since 1995. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and their whole technologies aren't even listed in your books.

Those encyclopedias now aren't useful for anything more than decorations or to be used as fire kindling should you ever need fast burning materials. Of course, always useful for propping up the end of a table or sagging pile of uneven clutter boxes.

[scribbliz]

rama, one thing that i do is figure out how much it would cost to replace...if it is less than x amount than I don't need to keep it. also, I ask myself "will I be able to get it to where I donate it quickly? How will I get it there?" If a friend is picking it up, they have until a specific date or I throw it out. I have to remind myself that if I thrift shop it, there is every chance it will stay in my home, in the way, for a year or more after I decide to donate it. Since the point of donating is to get it OUT, it doesn't work if it is going to sit there. If I have a way to get it where it is going within a short space of time (a week if I am taking it somewhere, a month at most if someone is picking it up) then I will do that. If NOT than I tell myself that it is ok to throw it out...I bag it up and take it outside IMMEDIATELY.

someone here told me you can't reduce the world's landfills by turning your home into an extention of the dump. I also remind myself of that

[Di]

Buy a NEW bag of rubber bands. ...put them in the door of your freezer. They won't ruin. Use the frozen ones. Toss out the rest.

[CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity]

Aug 18, 2012 14:23:09 GMT -5 dtesposito said:

think of it this way--when you die, the stuff will still be unused, and THEN it will be tossed. No one will come to your apartment and say, wow, I'm so glad there are all these pieces of used string here, I really need them. So it might as well be you who throws them out, so you can enjoy the clear space while you are still here!

^^^
This!

[ramatama]

Hi again,

I get what you all are saying regarding rubber bands (great tip to freeze them) string, buttons, shoelaces, but those are just examples.

I meant the rationalising part of my brain that fights "just chucking out perfectly good stuff"

As I mentioned, I do that with certain items, but with others (the examples- there are more, but I wont list them or we'd go into details again) I REALLY struggle i.e. rationalise keeping the stuff.

I seem to be fighting "amnesty" and I wonder how those of you who manage to "chuck out perfectly good stuff" do that. At what point did it "click"?

The encyclopedia part is, for newcomers, a different story: I had finally convinced DH to chuck it out, he gave go ahead, but when I was grabbing them down from shelf, he stopped me. No explanation, and though I asked, he simply stated: " I will no longer be pressured by you to throw things away." hmmmph.

[fluffernut - now Jannie]

Why do I still own every book and every paperback I've ever bought? I've had to buy shelves from Ikea to hold all of them. I've never ever looked at a novel once I've read it. I have "The Complete Works Of Stephen King". Who cares? My kids have other interests. They've told me, after I die, everything is going in a dumpster. They have no emotional attachment. I better get rid of it now. I'll take the books to a nearby old folks home. Or take them to the hospital waiting room. People often sit there and read while waiting on news of a loved one. Anything is better than a dumpster. If I toss a few, okay.

[dtesposito]

At what point did it "click"?

It clicked for me when I reasoned it out in detail. And I had to purposely try to do it for each item, prior to that I didn't think in terms of how many years supply of the item I had, I knew I had a lot of plastic bags, more than the average person--but somehow I thought I was using those bags, or had a good chance of needing all of them. It wasn't until I broke it down into numbers that I realized I didn't need them, no one else did either, so it was okay to get rid of them.

The weird thing is that I always thought of myself as good with logistics too--at work, I managed the medical care for a shelter full of sick animals--arranging their vet visits, daily treatments, location, staff schedules, etc., and I was good at it. But as with so many of us, when I came home it was different--it never naturally occurred to me that I had a 10 year supply of plastic bags until I "ran the numbers". That made it okay for me to get rid of them, because the mental reason for keeping them was "I'm going to need them someday and then I'll be glad I have them". I had to debunk that to the satisfaction of my own mind.

What are the thoughts that go through your head when you are preparing to throw the shoes away and look at the shoelaces and see that they're still good? Is it that you'll need them? (Run the numbers.) Is it that they are going into a landfill which isn't good for the environment? (That's why I posted that when you die they go into the trash anyway.) Do you think someone will be angry at you for wasting something? (Who? An authority figure who no longer directs your actions?) Do you think a friend will tell you later that they desperately need some shoelaces, and you'll be able to be a good friend and provide them? This is a big one for me. (Ask yourself how many times friends have needed items and you've been able to provide them--no doubt there will be some instances, but are there enough of them to make you keep everything in case of a hypothetical situation occurring later? And taking up valuable space in your house? On the occasions where you helped someone, was it an urgent situation in which the friend could not have obtained the items elsewhere?) Etc.

At some point in the thinking process things click for me, maybe not the first time and maybe not always, but I have to think everything through like that.

Diane

[eagle]

Hospital waiting area & train station lobby are both good places to recycle books. Our local ones have shelves just for that purpose.

Aug 19, 2012 4:28:44 GMT -5 ramatama said:

I seem to be fighting "amnesty" and I wonder how those of you who manage to "chuck out perfectly good stuff" do that. At what point did it "click"?

Ramatama, I'm having a hard time identifying when & how it 'clicked'. I don't think I even know. And as with you, it works better with some things than with others. I'm still progressing.

At some point I believe I owned more stationary products than many small stationary stores I've been inside. I stopped adding to the stash long before I was able to conclude that donating some of it to the local schools would be a good idea. Then it took quite some time before that conclusion to any action. Probably at least another year or two. And of course, I didn't donate the entire stash. I still probably have more stationary products than some small stores I've been inside. But I did donate quite a lot of it. And now and then I bring some of it out and donate a bit more, or give some to my granddaughter for her art projects. But I'm careful not to pass on too much at a time to her because I notice she also gathers & brings home too much stuff. (On road trips she gathers brochures & flyers for places she wants to go & won't toss a single one without a great deal of prodding.)

It's not so much that I have trouble with the amnesty concept, it's the letting go process that is the issue. For me it doesn't matter how it goes out of my house. I can equally donate, recycle, give away or send to trash, ONCE I decide to let something go. But for me it depends on the type of item it is, too. For whatever reason, some things are easier to let go of than others.

Regarding getting rid of things with DH present, you could try what I did a year or two ago. I waited until he was going to be gone for an entire week and cleaned out the garage and got rid of as much as I wanted to without him here to say anything about it. I've learned that I can't always throw away my own stuff when he is at home, for the same reasons you have experienced. I'm still annoyed that he angrily rescued an old desk of mine (bought before we were married for a mere $15) that I put into my car to take to the donation station. This was a few years ago & it still sits in the basement, dismantled, leaning up against a whole bunch of other stuff that he 'might use someday'. I don't necessarily wait until he's going to be gone for an extended period, just long enough for me to take action with the item in question.

So now, once he says it's okay to get rid of something OR it's mine & I want to get rid of it, I do it when he's not at home to see me doing it. Not that he can't get rid of stuff. He can, but I never know when the 'NO, that's perfectly good and a waste to get rid of it' will raise it's ugly head.

[puppybox]

I try to think like this:

I should use/recycle/donate/wash or repair and reuse X, but it's very likely that I won't, or that it will take me months or years to get around to it, and in the meantime it's making my life harder and I'm really not en effective person- I need to proceed, practice and improve at difficulty level 1 before adding an added degree of difficulty. It just doesn't make sense to try to be uber recycler/ upcycler/ artist using all reused materials (papier mache sculptures using those encyclopedia pages, or build a bookshelf where the encyclopedias are the sides of the shelves, or do that recently trendy folding pages to make designs, or the thing in the magasines where they cut pages into vase shapes, etc etc etc) when I can't even eat and sleep and go to the dentist in a proper, normal fashion. I need to focus on making myself a competant person with a normally clean home and life, and I need to not spend another 6 years wasting time accoplishing it. Dealing with stuff all the time is not a good hobby. I should be meeting people, reading more, DOING more real things. these things, while perfectly good are robbing me of my life, or at least postponing it semi-tragically

maybe you're way more advanced than I am at life. but there may be something you're avoiding by tending to string and stuff.