rationalising and the concept of amnesty

[scribbliz]

Aug 19, 2012 9:12:31 GMT -5 dtesposito said:

Do you think a friend will tell you later that they desperately need some shoelaces, and you'll be able to be a good friend and provide them? This is a big one for me. (Ask yourself how many times friends have needed items and you've been able to provide them--no doubt there will be some instances, but are there enough of them to make you keep everything in case of a hypothetical situation occurring later?

something else to ask here, if a friend desperately needed said item (in this case shoelaces) how much would it cost me to run out and get her new ones? Is there a store nearby that sells them? Will they be expensive or not? your friend deserves new items anyway, and so do you!

I ask those questions about items I keep in case someone else needs them, but also if it's an item that I think I might use in the future. Will I use this again? If I think I might, how much will it cost to replace? Will it be EASY to replace??? I kept an old sewing machine of my grandmothers (from 1932) because it worked. I used it maybe once a year, but the cost of replacing it (even with a new one) would be over $100 (so more than I had) and to find one I could afford would not be easy. So that I kept. On the other hand, I know people who rinse and reuse ziploc bags (except those used for storing mean) and I felt guilty for throwing mine out for a while. Then I realized it costs me less than $5 to replace them and the grocery store where I get them is less than 15 minutes away...inexpensive and easy to get; so those I throw out. I probably will use more ziploc bags, BUT in the end it takes less time, and effort, and very little money, to replace with new when I need more, that I chuck.

That is I think the biggest way I rationalize it. Like dtesposito said, run the numbers? Will I use this? Or do I have way more than I will ever need? How many do I really use or how often do I really use it?? Can I replace it easily and inexpensively? How long is it going to sit there taking up space that could be MY space?? Will anyone in my household use this? Will any of my friends have a use for this? If a name of a friend immediately jumps to mind, call them. Ask, I have this item, and thought of you? I was about to throw it out, do you want it? If they say no, chuck it, if they say yes, are they going to pick it up? If yes, great, they have until a specific date (shorter time frame the closer they are) to come get it. If no, are you willing/going to ship it or drop it off?? give yourself a time limit on that too. If it's past the limit, out it goes.

hugs and prayers!

[Layla]

I am not big on chucking items into the trash, Id rather donate them. I feel better about that, so most goes via donation or "free" ads for people to come pick up stuff.

Whether the next person keeps the stuff or trashes it, I wont know, but personally I couldnt trash it. I trash very little, broken things with no hope of repair, ripped clothing or worn out, I will toss.

I did let go of old phone books, threw those in the recycle bin along with old magazines.

I have learned to let go, and my recycle trash can is much fuller now then my regular trash can, but most of my letting go is donating to others or selling stuff.

[ramatama]

Thanks dear SOoS co-eds? for sharing your "progression" stories.

Perhaps my way for now, will have to be donate and let others make the chuck away decision for me....

There is no active equivalent of craig's list here in this city, though I did find some on-line free charge auction places where, if I am brave enough, I could advertise about some of the things, making DH a happier guy.

So now am thinking...I'll take lots of the stuff (not sure if wanted, desirable items, like plastic bags, string, stationery stuff, anti-bug stuff, cassettes, video cassetes, the latter all in English, bought here or shipped here at great expense way back then) and donate it to the local church, (although I am not a member, but DH is) and let them decide if they can sell it.
Normally one takes stuff there at appointed times and one waits one's turn, and they then tell you if they will take it or not, not sure if I can go through that...
I will make a point of not going to the flea market they have scheduled in September, I don't want to go check if "my" stuff is selling)

Am still hessitating on some things an aunt gave me to try and sell at antique stores, she claimed the items are worth something and I should benefit from this...sigh...They've been sitting in the doom room for 3 years now. I'm afraid of "selling short". How weird is that?
sheesh...

Awaiting further comments...am sure many readers including lurkers will profit ( <-ahem, not really a pun) from this.

[yearning4order]

Aug 18, 2012 4:56:24 GMT -5 ramatama said:

How do those of you who have just got rid of pefectly good things (without recycling, giving away or donating) rationalise/talk yourselves into doing just that?

First, I'd like to say I'm not a true hoarder, so I think my struggles and solutions may not always work for those who are. I say this to make it clear that in some cases the solutions will be unique for each of us, as well as to high light that as we change (and as we find some healing) the tactics that once worked for us may have to change over time too.

I don't know all of your history, so please forgive me if I suggest things that you've already tried.

I know when I first started with this board, I had to refer back to many posts from folks with far more experience than I have to get those reminders:

My home is not the garbage dump for the world while stuff is waiting to be used or find a place to go.

It's ok to throw something away, period.

On a spiritual level, the idea that my lack of faith in the Universe / God / Spirit (please, use the terms for you that work) was such that I couldn't bear to get rid of a 2nd or 3rd VCR for fear I wouldn't have the resources or abundance in the future to replace something.

That's still a huge concept for me, and one I still find some struggle with.

On a larger level, for me, the issue of buying art supplies and then depriving myself of the opportunity to make art (because I'm not convinced I can replace materials once used up) is also part of that cycle.

So when I first came here--the house was an incredible stye and yes, I actually still had 3 VCRs and multiples of other things I couldn't bear to get rid of. It was a long slow process of getting rid of things.

One of the most freeing things was to stop recycling. Yes, I know it's better for the planet, it's something I strive for, but if I'm roadblocked with 50 empty glass bottles on my kitchen counter and can't get them washed, and in fact stop doing any dishes because those 50 empty glass bottles seem insurmountable--it's a far better thing for the planet for me to trash those glass bottles. Because then I clean my kitchen. Then I create a tolerable space where I once again start to recycle my papers, junk mail, etc. (In fact, this is EXACTLY what happened.)

These days, I've even got as far as sometimes being able to take the extra time to wash out plastics and put them in the recyling!

But back to the self-deprivation for a moment: one of the things that fuels much of my self-defeating and/or addictive behaviors is that right there, the self-deprivation. I will deprive myself of company, and to start that, I let the house begin to get cluttered. I was genuinely exhausted this June, after working full time and being in school full time for the first time in decades, so I let things slide for a bit.

Oddly, that creeps into becoming ok with isolating. And then I find myself not doing things I like to do, such as walking, visiting with friends, inviting friends over. I was able to tidy the house again, and even invited a friend over to do some art today. But it's huge--I don't know why I avoid asking friends over, but I do. Even with the house clean. It's clean enough that people could drop over at any time now, but I am still learning how to have friends.

I'm not sure if any of this helps. If you are asking others around you what works, that is already your successful tactic. When I first started, people had to remind me it was an inch at a time, a foot at a time. Other shared that the voice in my head that was telling me I was doing it wrong--well I could talk back to it and tell it to "#%$# off. (Sorry for language, but this internal swearing at that negative voice has been very powerful for me!)

The other thing that saved my life: if I was going to offer something to someone else, I began also letting folks know that said item was available for 24 hours and nothing more, or they could find it at a local Goodwill. This eliminated the whole, "Oh yeah, I want that, can you hold it for me?" that kept my home a garbage dump.

[eagle]

Another interesting point about recycling or donating versus just tossing into the trash: When I first started here (actually at Squalor Survivors), people said why not just toss things in the trash instead of recycling? Well, where I lived at the time our recycle bin was almost twice the size of our garbage bin and both were picked up weekly. So it made more sense to recycle as much as possible than to toss it in the trash. And the donation station was within a mile of where I lived, so it was easy access. AND I wanted to get as much out of my house as possible in the shortest amount of time. So I used everything at my disposal: donations, freecycle, trash can, recycle bin, even going to the dump a couple of times.

I just wanted those things out. And I was in a hurry.

I was so motivated at that time to get rid of as much as possible as fast as possible, that I did whatever it took to get it out. So daily trips to the donation station in my car was part of my method. It was much faster than any other method. I filled my car and drove over there daily for months.

I also made a couple of trips to the dump, but only for things that I couldn't fit into the garbage bin and only things I couldn't recycle. The reason: It cost me money to take things to the dump; it was free to recycle and I did NOT have to travel to recycle.

Things are different in different areas of course. Where I live now, our recycle bin is tiny compared to then, although our service is changing the beginning of the year, and we will again have a large recycle bin. But they won't be picking it up weekly, so this area still doesn't value recycling as much as the area I used to live. But it's progress. For the most part, I don't have any trouble filling a recycle bin. Only when I don't want to deal with the clean up required to recycle will I toss something recyclable into the gargabe bin.

I still don't have to travel anywhere except my own garage to recycle. And the donation station is still only a mile or two away from my home. Again, that may not be the same for everyone.

The way I see it, if you do not have recycle pick-up at home alongside your regular trash pick-up, then go ahead and toss things in the trash when you have room. And if donating is a huge & major hassle (have to drive or take a bus for miles and hours each trip) then just toss it in the trash. Weigh the effort involved to deliver the items to their destination versus putting them into the trash. Sometimes it's just more sensible to toss it in the trash. Just get it out of the house.

But if you want to get rid of stuff faster and don't want to wait for the trash pick-up to put more stuff into the trashcan, then do whatever it takes to get it out of the house.

[Script]

Aug 19, 2012 15:00:59 GMT -5 eagle said:

Another interesting point about recycling or donating versus just tossing into the trash:......

Things are different in different areas of course. .

The other side of the coin:
where I live, it is FAR EASIER to recycle than to toss in trash. Our TRASH BINS are limited in size. Our recycle bin is much bigger, plus we can put out any amount of EXTRA recycling

[missjeanclean]

It didn't actually "click" for me, Ramatama. I just figured out that most of the stuff that I had lying out had "homes" but those places were full.

I knew that some people here limited their stashes based on a number; e.g. only save 15 bags. But that didn't work for me.

However, I could limit the amount of space my "emergency" items took up by giving them designated containers. If the container was full, out they went! For example, I have three magnetic spice jars that contain pushpins, paperclips, and rubberbands. Those are in the office, where I use those items. In a kitchen drawer is an empty Chimes Ginger Chews tin that holds bag-ties. An empty tissue box holds plastic shopping bags in the cupboard with the garbage bags.

I also did this to a certain extent with my books. I have three bookcases, but I decided that the one nearest the pantry would be a perfect storage place for napkins and tea items. So I had to make room for the recipe books in another case. Just like you have a '70s encyclopedia, I had a few history textbooks that were neither wanted by the library nor salable. They went out so that I could keep a seldom-used but much-loved recipe books.

As for amnesty, I take this tack: If I am in major paralysis, I allow myself to toss. That means if I'm ready to run away (mentally or physically), I tell myself I don't have to shred, dismantle, or otherwise prepare something for recycling. I can let it go.

[PaperGrace]

I go this way: Donate, Freecycle, Recycle, Trash

I get that amnesty can be a great tool for getting out from under the piles, and I use it only sometimes. Sometimes I actually feel pressure here to throw things out when they could be easily be recycled or donated. I don't throw out perfectly good things unless/until getting them out another way costs too much in the way of my resources: time, effort, or decision power.

Another trouble is that I define too many things as 'perfectly good'. I find myself willing to keep useful things that I wouldn't donate. Twice repaired chairs that look it--off to freecycle with a very honest description. If I don't get a reply in three days: trash. I figure if no one even wants it for free, I deserve better too. If a boardgame is missing pieces I am training myself to throw it out: 'Would be perfectly good if...' is not the same as perfectly good. These things cost too much in effort.

Likewise recycling: An old yogurt container is building a civilization at the back of the fridge; I toss it, unopened--IF the sink is full of dishes, or I'm in the middle of another project--otherwise it is rinsed and recycled.

So if it is good enough to donate-I do, if it isn't really-but someone might want it anyway-freecycle (or for some, put it on the curb or in front of the dumpster, if someone hasn't picked it up by trash-day in the bin it goes), then if it can be recycled with little effort good, and if not, trash. Would I have to launder or repair it to donate it? Too costly: curb/trash. Would it cost me less (effort) to replace than to find in the piles? Trash!

[Ally]

Rama, As I think about this... It has not been a single event for me when everything "clicked", but a process of slow gradual change. A series of "ah-ha moments" over time. I'm still not there.
One thing I've been fairly successful with is reusing plastic eating utensils. (I use them for work and when I eat away form home.) I had a drawer so stuffed full that I couldn't open/close it easily. I bought dividers and now when a section is full, I need to throw some out.
Sometimes I decide to keep something, because I think I might need it someday, and the thought of getting rid of it is stressful. Later, as the days, weeks and months progress, I realize that I haven't used the item and then it sometimes is easier for me to discard/donate it.
One thing I try to keep in mind is that I have limited space, and in order to keep my house in order, I need to get rid of a significant amount of stuff.
I printed out a personalized list of questions that Sunshine posted in her blog and I look at it from time to time. It's there second post in this thread: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=blogs&thread=17790&page=1#266980

The book I am going through right now has you select a "theme" for your life, then asks to to evaluate whether things fit into your theme. One of my theme/goals is to create a serene, peaceful place free of clutter. Here is a sample of some questions I ask myself:
Does it have practical value? Do I have specific plans to use it? Would I miss it enough to replace it if it were damaged? stolen? Would keeping it help me achieve my goal of an uncluttered house?
Does it fit with my theme?

[Blackswan]

I have tossed tons of useful stuff from several houses that I have lived in. My last house I tossed almost everything, pans, books, clothing, knick knacks, etc. I think it comes from the repeated moving giving me practice. I have learned that a lot of the stuff that I have saved never gets used, and everything I toss almost never ever gets a second thought. There are some things that I have regrets about, like giving my leather sofa and stove to my sister that later got them cockroached out and trashed them, but life goes on and I don't spend a lot of time regretting it. Whats gone is gone, move on. I would rather make a mistake in tossing something than drag everything around with me or have it clutter up my space.

Moving so much I have found that the only things I really use are clothes, books, my guitar and my laptop, not much more than that.

Those things make me happy, everything else is junk that can easily be repurchased if i need it. I have set up entire new households many times over.

When my friends mom died, we called Salvation Army to do an estate haul away. They took what they wanted, and everything else we threw away except for a few special items he kept. That day really showed me the futility of keeping a bunch of stuff in a house. Its mostly not gonna be used when you are living there, and you know the stuff that you use, and when you die, your children or other family are going to have to feel super morose and deal with throwing it away. ITs a hard thing to do, and I had only met my friends mother two times in the fifteen years I knew him. But it still hurt me, an outsider to throw away her life of belongings.

And the guilt that useful things are being tossed? I just have to move past it. A lot of those things would be tossed by the thrift shops if donated, I don't have the time or energy to haul it all out there, putting it out for people would clutter up the street, etc. Into the trash it goes. And I get over it.

SO that is how I have done it. Just practice, practice, practice. It gets easier.

Don't let stuff weigh you down, life is too short. Stuff will always be there when you need it, and if we ever get to the point where there is no stuff available, we are going to be worried about more important things like food, water, and life's necessities.

[diera]

I think for me the big key was, I had to get comfortable with the possibility of being wrong when I threw something away. It wasn't enough to prove to myself that I almost certainly probably definitely would never need X, because I'm a worst-case-scenario person, so I could always come up with some scenario, however improbable, where I might need it. I had to move beyond that and remind myself that this happens all the time to 'normal' people. Yes, I might toss a perfectly good shoebox on Sunday, only to find out on Tuesday that my kid needs one for a project. It'll be annoying, and I'll have to scramble around and find one, and it'll be a case where it looks like I could have averted this by saving the shoebox, and most importantly I will feel like I did something wrong. That's honestly the worst part for me, that feeling of chagrin, or imagining it anyway. Of course we all acknowledge rationally that we could find more string or shoeboxes or whatever, but it's having made a mistake that stings, for me anyway. I really had to accept that the only alternative was to literally keep everything, and that is also a mistake. It feels like the safe decision when I opt to keep something rather than toss it, but it's an illusion created by the fact that I'm constitutionally somewhat blind to the obvious (to 'normal' people) mistake of filling up my whole house with empty shoeboxes, and I'm also probably abnormally sensitive to having actively made a decision that turned out to be a mistake. So I had to try to accept that. Sometimes I'm going to chuck something, and I'm going to regret it. It can't be helped and it's not something that most people dwell on much I think.

[ClutterBlind]

Aug 19, 2012 4:28:44 GMT -5 ramatama said:

I seem to be fighting "amnesty" and I wonder how those of you who manage to "chuck out perfectly good stuff" do that. At what point did it "click"?

Be careful of having the expectation that when you get to the place where it suddenly "clicks" and you get the concept of Amnesty, that tossing things will become instantaneously joyful or comfortable or easy. It may not be.

Feelings are outside of time, they are often illogical even when we rationally know better and different. You may finally get that it's okay to start tossing things, but your feelings haven't caught up. But, like a muscle you have to start building up, you will just have to toss some things and LIVE WITH THE UNCOMFORTABILITY. It's like going to the dentist for an extraction. You know it will cause pain, but you do it because leaving the tooth in place will cause you more pain in the longer run.

I wrote this in the past. I keep reading this recurring theme where people think or need decluttering to feel comfortable. Who set up that rule? Who said and decided decluttering and letting go of things has to feel comfortable? Who gave the belief that we are such emotionally fragile creatures who will break every time we get rid of something? How about just accepting the fact that you will be uncomfortable and do it anyway?

Realize if you are avoiding the uncomfortably of regret by choosing a path with longer term loss: loss of time and the time and joy you will have living in a space freed of clutter.


In my own experience, when I first started reading and lurking here, it took me several months before I could toss things. I am not a hoarder. I actually had several large donation piles. I had no problem giving away useful things. The problem was that they were sitting around for 5-10 years because there was no easy way to get it all to the donation center as I did not have a car. Even trying to drag all the items to and down the elevator, hiring a cab to cart it to the donation center would have cost more money and time than the items were collectively worth.

I finally realized that my small apartment was being used as an alternate landfill because the items sat uselessly and were degrading just by sitting in place. AND I realized that even if I was able to donate them, they might only get 1-2 more uses before finally landing in a real landfill. I had to decide I was more precious and deserving of care than the very items I was considering so precious. My LIFE was in a landfill. I had to come to terms with the idea that it was okay for me to toss them without that one extra use. That was an excruciating idea for me. These items were still USEFUL!!! I spent good money on them. An inventor made them with the intention of being used, not simply thrown away.

I had to understand that the money was already gone. I had to read over the Sticky thread on the concept of "sunk costs" many times. That maybe, I had already honored the inventors/designers by the act of being so excited when I bought their items. That maybe they would be horrified with the idea that I was being buried under their items. That maybe God was weeping to see me buried and paralyzed by those items. When he helped me get them all, he never intended for me to be trapped by them, no matter how good my intentions were to help others by passing them on. I AM a good person. But, I had to do what the flight attendants tell us on planes, "Put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others."

Still, the guilt to toss the first few large trash bags of items was horrendous. But, I TOSSED ANYWAY. I lived with the fact that the bags were down in the dumpster for at least another day before they would finally be headed to the landfill. I made myself not go back and reclaim the bags. I LIVED WITH THE UNCOMFORTABILITY, GUILT, ANXIETY AND SHAME.

And guess what, I LIVED THROUGH IT AND SURVIVED!!!!
I was not struck down by lightning or by God. And incredibly, after 2 days, I actually started breathing easier. An emotional and soulful weight was lifted. More than the weight of the bags were gone.

I still had guilt and anxiety the next several bags. But, it got easier with each bag. I was building a new emotional muscle and a new emotional habit. There were also some items that were still incredibly hard and had to be debated over individually. Sometimes, I had to Google to find out if I tossed the item, whether there were still some around for others who wanted one to be able to get. Yes, there were. I didn't have to be the "Red Cross" of rare and unattainable items. I could toss.

NOW, it is much easier to toss. The guilt is gone. The relief and joy of getting space back has replaced that feeling.


Perhaps, if you do what I did, toss easier items and just live with the guilt and anxiety. Or leave those items in the bag or box around for a week instead? Anything you really feel the need to rescue, you can go into to the bag and take out that one item, then toss the rest of the bag. It will still give you the freed up space, while give you time to think & mull over whether you really need & want the item and work through the guilt & pain of tossing the items.

[CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity]

Aug 20, 2012 13:42:24 GMT -5 ClutterBlind said:

like a muscle you have to start building up, you will just have to toss some things and LIVE WITH THE UNCOMFORTABILITY. It's like going to the dentist for an extraction. You know it will cause pain, but you do it because leaving the tooth in place will cause you more pain in the longer run.

I wrote this in the past. I keep reading this recurring theme where people think or need decluttering to feel comfortable. Who set up that rule? Who said and decided decluttering and letting go of things has to feel comfortable? Who gave the belief that we are such emotionally fragile creatures who will break every time we get rid of something? How about just accepting the fact that you will be uncomfortable and do it anyway?

Realize if you are avoiding the uncomfortably of regret by choosing a path with longer term loss: loss of time and the time and joy you will have living in a space freed of clutter.

But, I TOSSED ANYWAY. I lived with the fact that the bags were down in the dumpster for at least another day before they would finally be headed to the landfill. I made myself not go back and reclaim the bags. I LIVED WITH THE UNCOMFORTABILITY, GUILT, ANXIETY AND SHAME.

And guess what, I LIVED THROUGH IT AND SURVIVED!!!!

I was not struck down by lightning or by God. And incredibly, after 2 days, I actually started breathing easier. An emotional and soulful weight was lifted. More than the weight of the bags were gone.

I still had guilt and anxiety the next several bags. But, it got easier with each bag. I was building a new emotional muscle and a new emotional habit. There were also some items that were still incredibly hard and had to be debated over by themselves. Sometimes, I had to Google to find out if I tossed the item, whether there were still some around for others who wanted one to be able to get. Yes, they were. I didn't have to be the "Red Cross" of rare and unattainable items. I could toss.

NOW, it is much easier to toss. The guilt is gone. The relief and joy of getting space back has replaced that feeling.

Here are some relevant excerpts from
BetsyMarie's post "Things I've learned"
takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=15139

Jul 9, 2011 13:02:32 GMT -5 betsymarie said:

7. "Be Brave." Toss things and experience/stay with the uncomfortable feelings and sense of loss. People who do that are more likely to succeed in the long run. Go towards the discomfort rather than run from it. It will pass. Attempting to avoid these feelings or delaying dealing with them is the cornerstone of hoarding. (from Oprah site)


10. Even after the clutter is removed, if you have used clutter as a protective barrier, it's still uncomfortable contemplating letting people in. I think that's what some call 'ghost clutter'. But letting people in is your own free choice, and 'no' is always a legitimate option.


13. Accept the feeling of 'overwhelmed'. It will be there anyway, so say 'hi' to it, that you expected it to come along, and continue working. You can work and feel at the same time. 'Overwhelmed' comes and goes so be at peace with it. It can feel intense, but it's just a feeling state that will pass.
'Overwhelmed' comes from seeing all there is to do all at once. Break it down into the smallest tasks possible, one tiny piece at a time, and start there. You can only work on one item at a time anyway.


17. 'Resistance' is just another unpleasant feeling state. Treat it like the others - accept it, experience it, then let it dissipate like the passing dark cloud it is. Do not give it more power than it deserves. After decades of struggling against 'resistance', who knew?

[To read BetsyMarie's entire post, go here:
takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=15139

---

[Bethel]

Ramatama,

Yesterday while I was decluttering my shed I got bit by a spider.

What was in the shed? Mostly a bunch of stuff that was perfectly good when it was put in the shed. Games (pieces all jumbeled together), sewing stuff (now soaked in rat piss), magazines (chawed up for rat bedding) that were fascinating 10 years ago...

The spiders, rats, and ants ADORED the cozy little home we made for them out of all the stuff we just HAD to save....

Anyhow, that's my take on stuff now. Sure something might still be useful. But unless I'm using it NOW then it has to go. Otherwise it's just more potential rat bedding or a spider hidey-hole.

[Di]

I ask my friends if anyone wants it, then I take the BEST of the BEST to Good Will, then I don't think twice about tossing out the rest. A shirt with a small grease stain... TOSS. A toy with a missing piece... TOSS. If there is ANYTHING wrong with something I toss it out. I am not going to pawn off my junk onto someone else. If I don't want it, why would someone else want it? There are exceptions to that, but generally, if I don't want it, I don't want someone else to have to deal with it. I don't have a problem tossing out "perfectly good" things because things are seldom perfect and if they were that "good" I would be keeping them.