Young woman arrested for squalor

[60isolderthanithot]

Being arrested and publically humiliated in the press will also make her just about unemployable, won't it?

There are several truths in this thread - some useful for looking in the mirror and others perhaps more useful in reforming the use of police powers in situations better served by charities or social workers.

[breakingfree]

Apr 14, 2009 15:38:43 GMT -5 houseworkhater said:

Apr 14, 2009 15:18:47 GMT -5 60isolderthanithot said:

Does that mean the mother is guilty and does NOT deserve better?

I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion! The mother is not necessarily guilty, but she is RESPONSIBLE for those children, as is the father, equally. If he lives there, he is just as responsible. But that doesn't exonerate her.

How hard is it to understand that these children cannot prepare their meals, clean the house, bathe themselves, do their own laundry, and distinguish between food and feces when it is intermingled in their environment?

And why do you consistently mis-characterize my posts?

You have summarized how I felt growing up. I was powerless. I could do nothing for me or my brothers. I am not so sure that foster care would have been any better, but at the same time, growing up was crappy. I still feel guilt about living in squalor with my children, but the thing is--people can change! I am here to spread that message and to stay on track.

BF

[60isolderthanithot]

Let's try a thought experiment (they were good enough for Einstein): Imagine that you wake up one day and it finally dawns on you that you have a problem. You're burying yourself in garbage. Or books. Or valuable Beanie Babies. You've tried for two/ten/twenty years to stop this and it hasn't worked.

On the one hand, you could look for a therapist who will almost certainly not be judgmental with you or call you names or put your photos on the Internet

OR

You could call the landlord and invite him to evict you because the threat of that will surely make you See the Light and stop collecting those Beanie Babies and if he calls the police, they will at least know where to take the books for burning.

Is there anyone who thinks the outcome would be a shock?

[houseworkhater]

BF - Exactly. I actually did not have children because of not only my physical squalor but my mental squalor and the inability to manage my life the way "normal" people did. I am not saying this is for everyone, but it is my life...by the time I was ready to have kids, my body would not cooperate, and I am childless to this day.

All I am trying to say is that most of us have choices. These children have no choice. And if this woman wants to change, improve her life and the lives of her children, I pray that this can be an impetus, not a setback. But not everyone is like the people here, and not everyone DOES care.

All we can do is try.

[60isolderthanithot]

Okay, let's be more realistic: is there anyone here who believes that punishment TEACHES?

I really do want to know, because I'm trying to figure out if there are any consistent differences between people who have varying views. One thread I'm seeing is a feeling that the mother deserved to be arrested, another thread thinks that arresting the mother increases the pain on the family and is a misplaced use of police power.

[AnnieOkie]

I think this subject has really hit a nerve with most of us here. Here are some points I would like to make:
-This mother allowed her home to become squalorous, for whatever reason.
-She allowed herself and her children to live in the squalor.
-She was "found out" by police entering her home for a completely unrelated reason.

I can only speak for myself here, but this could have been me last year. I didn't have animal feces on the floor or rotting food, but I think if someone had come in, DHS would have been called. I know it in my heart.

Some more points:
-I allowed my home to become squalorous.
-I allowed myself and my children to live in the squalor.
-I was not "found out" by anyone entering my home.

I am responsible for the condition of my home and I am responsible for insuring that my children are clean, healthy, well-fed and have a healthy environment to live in. I think this woman should be held accountable for her squalor (by getting help to clean up or whatever can be done) and her children be allowed to live in a healthy place until that time. It's painful. No, I wouldn't want it to happen to my children. But looking in from the outside on this case, those children need something the mother isn't providing at this time.

-She should not go to jail.
-She should receive some social assistance in rebuilding her home. I hope there is a program to help her and her children. I think that was the original intent of this thread.....that there be somewhere for this woman to go for help.

I will add that the media should not be allowed to expose this woman's problems to the world.

I don't know if there is anything helpful in my reply, I just felt like I wanted to say these things.

[breakingfree]

Apr 14, 2009 16:00:07 GMT -5 AnnieOkie said:

I think this subject has really hit a nerve with most of us here. Here are some points I would like to make:
-This mother allowed her home to become squalorous, for whatever reason.
-She allowed herself and her children to live in the squalor.
-She was "found out" by police entering her home for a completely unrelated reason.

I can only speak for myself here, but this could have been me last year. I didn't have animal feces on the floor or rotting food, but I think if someone had come in, DHS would have been called. I know it in my heart.

Some more points:
-I allowed my home to become squalorous.
-I allowed myself and my children to live in the squalor.
-I was not "found out" by anyone entering my home.

I am responsible for the condition of my home and I am responsible for insuring that my children are clean, healthy, well-fed and have a healthy environment to live in. I think this woman should be held accountable for her squalor (by getting help to clean up or whatever can be done) and her children be allowed to live in a healthy place until that time. It's painful. No, I wouldn't want it to happen to my children. But looking in from the outside on this case, those children need something the mother isn't providing at this time.

-She should not go to jail.
-She should receive some social assistance in rebuilding her home. I hope there is a program to help her and her children. I think that was the original intent of this thread.....that there be somewhere for this woman to go for help.

I will add that the media should not be allowed to expose this woman's problems to the world.

I don't know if there is anything helpful in my reply, I just felt like I wanted to say these things.

Annie, you are a voice of reason.

BF

[houseworkhater]

I agree with Annie -- I think you made some great points.

Most of us would be mortified if our secret was exposed. I know I would, especially at my worst. Do I think this woman deserves jail? NO! Should there be a system in place to help people living in squalor, especially those with children? YES! I was just saying that since it had already happened (the arrest), maybe it would be a good thing for the children.

[60isolderthanithot]

I'm with you, Annie, that mother was failing at a fundamental duty to nurture her young. The question is: did it help the situation to arrest and humiliate her and separate the children from their mother because she failed to do her job? Is it the most practical use of police powers and tax money to spend it putting her in jail and throwing her kids into a foster home system that drives social workers to tears in nearly every professional journal? Do her kids deserve punishment too?

I am sensing an undercurrent of what economists (and apparently social scientists too) call altruistic punishment. That mother is a target for scorn and abuse - and in this forum, I don't think she should be. I think she should be defended, no matter how squeamish we are about her reflections on us as fellow squalorers. Spitting on her is self-hatred. There must be a place somewhere for acceptance -- even when she is clearly wrong. She deserves help too, and I can't see how we'd give help to a person we greeted with, "I'm glad you got arrested, maybe that will force you to clean up and stop neglecting your kids!"

If someone had greeted YOU that way the first time you stepped into this board, what would you have done? Is this the next-to-the-last-place then? Is it not the final destination for those who feel completely helpless and hopeless? Is there no place on Earth for someone to go with this problem where there won't be hollering and righteous anger and hatred?

[AnnieOkie]

Apr 14, 2009 16:11:59 GMT -5 houseworkhater said:

I was just saying that since it had already happened (the arrest), maybe it would be a good thing for the children.

I hope so, too.

[AnnieOkie]

Apr 14, 2009 16:19:08 GMT -5 60isolderthanithot said:

The question is: did it help the situation to arrest and humiliate her and separate the children from their mother because she failed to do her job?

My input:

No. Unless there was proof that she had committed an actual crime, she should not have been arrested. Social services ONLY should have been called after the police dealt with the man coming into the home to hide from them.

[CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity]

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Here are some snippets from my long post on page 4 of this thread:

Apr 14, 2009 6:54:19 GMT -5 CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity said:

We have many members in deep squalor -- who have children living with them. This is a fact.

My concern is that squalorous parents reading this thread will become afraid to post here !

Yes of course the kids deserve a clean home. Duh ! That's one of the reasons why this site exists. To help parents learn to clean up.

NOTE:

I realize that some of you on this thread may not have intended to denigrate the squalorous mother.

But, nevertheless, you need to be aware that many of our members are squalorous mothers. Please be aware of how your words affect others.

Again, I know squalor is wrong. The squalorous mothers here at this forum know that squalor is wrong, and that's why they're here.

Regarding pets: There are tons of squalorous pet owners here on these forums.

Of course a pet needs a clean home.
Pet owners at these forums are trying to learn to change.

Bottom line:

Let's continue discussing squalor openly and frankly. We don't need to sugar-coat it.

We can all work toward taking responsibility for ourselves, our homes, our children, and our pets.

We can agree that squalor is wrong.

We can agree that children and pets should not live in squalor.

But, regardless, the squalorous parents and squalorous pet-owners at this forum need to know that they are intrinsically WONDERFUL, WORTHWHILE, LOVABLE HUMAN BEINGS.

I want all members and lurkers to be able to feel that this is a SAFE place to post and get help.

This place needs to be safe and feel safe. Members need to feel they will be honored and respected as human beings, despite their inappropriate squalor.

If it doesn't feel safe here, people will leave and then lose this safety lifeline. And more of us will get arrested.

Apr 14, 2009 12:22:09 GMT -5 houseworkhater said:

I really hate that we can't just say how we feel, as long as it is done with respect.

I think the key phrase is: "as long as it is done with respect."

Personally, I believe that we CAN say what we feel, as long as we are respectful.

My long-winded post may have been unclear. I never intended to silence any respectful comments -- (regardless of point of view).

I certainly don't want to coddle any members into being complacent about their own squalor. I sometimes coddle myself, and I recognize the real danger in this.

I do support the idea of being responsible for those under one's care.

If people here side with the children or pets, I totally understand that point of view.

Why did I post?

My intent was to say that it might be useful to speak one's truth (whatever that truth may be), and then add a comment that one acknowledges that many members and lurkers are squalorous parents or squalorous pet-owners, and that one accepts their membership and wishes them godspeed in their recovery.

I think it's a good balance to speak plain hard truths, and yet acknowledge that you support whoever is here to change their ways.

I noticed that CrazyCatLady attempted to give a balanced perspective:

Apr 10, 2009 22:45:47 GMT -5 crazycatlady said:

I work in the mental health field. You might be surprised by how often some of our clients are in and out of jail. Sometimes they are simply criminals, often with substance abuse issues. But many of them are just mentally ill. They may commit minor crimes which sometimes results in jail time. They are not mistreated while incarcerated, in fact for those that abuse substances, it seems like being in jail is often the only way they can get clean! Often it is just a brief stay in jail, and then they are sent back to outpt psych treatment.

Guess I'm trying to say that going to jail isn't always the worst thing to happen. Sometimes it helps to shine a light on a problem, and begin to qualify the person for help.

After all, a horribly messy person asking for help may be ignored. But now this family is going to be fully investigated, and most likely will get help. Hopefully that abusive father will not be breaking windows and crawling into the home anymore. That had to be traumatic for the woman and her children. Hopefully someone will help her clean up the mess, and teach her some parenting skills. If she has substance abuse problems, or mental health issues, I hope that she will find assistance for that, too.

I do feel bad for her, but like others, I think that the needs of the kids come first. As a previously squalorous Mom, I let my kids down in many ways over the years. I'm very thankful that I was never investigated by anyone, and that I have never been to jail.

I would prefer a system to help people get out of their squalor. But I feel that those kids, and their Mom, have a better chance of getting help now than they did before this all happened.

If anyone here is living in a similar situation....please don't give up. Keep reading, and keep posting. This forum can help you to find your way out.

I actually DISAGREE with what CrazyCatLady said, but I respect that she said her truth while still encouraging the current members and lurkers to read and post here, and work on their recovery.

CrazyCatLady attempted to speak her truth -- while being respectful, and making it clear she didn't want anyone alienated by this thread.

Even though I disagree with what CrazyCatLady said, I totally respect her effort to be inclusive of all members.


MY MAIN CONCERN IS THAT WE NOT SCARE OFF MEMBERS.

Yet, I do agree that hard truths must be spoken, or else we will continue to hide behind our squalor.

We need the hard truths in order to recover.

I do hope that anyone reading uncomfortable and painful words here, is not discouraged. Please do stick around.

You will find hope and recovery here. I did.


And ... Another thing ... it would seem obvious that the moderators/administrators are not forbidding the various points of view from being spoken. Script is a moderator. She's posted twice in this thread. She has tried to help all of us look at things from various points of view.

I sure as heck feel uncomfortable and anxious when I read this thread.

But I think it's a worthwhile topic, as long as we all are respectful to one another.

ONE MORE POINT .... I chose to read CrazyCatLady's post because she was speaking as a "Formerly Squalorous Parent".

My earlier concern was: if someone were a slightly messy/cluttery parent, who didn't understand real squalor -- or what it's like to have that squalorous mindset, I thought it would be inappropriate for them to be judgmental of the woman in the news article.

If you don't "get" squalor, you don't get squalor.

CrazyCatLady gets squalor, so that's why I listened to her, even though I disagreed with her.

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[lilith]

My sisters and brothers,

When I read this thread I feel the pain-you can almost taste it.

I feel my own guilt for having done this to my son. I feel my own rage for my mom and grandparents exposing me to this. I feel my own shame from the times my squalor has been exposed. I feel my terror when the door bell or phone rings. I feel my depression of the realization that I will fight this THE REST OF MY LIFE.

In my 44 years on this planet I have come to believe they are really only 2 true emotions-fear and love. For me the above paragraph is my fear and I can't anger or smash that away. I can ONLY love it away.

I salute you all for ripping open your hearts and letting them bleed in this thread. I know the price this kind of raw honesty costs. I know the tears that have been shed over this thread. I know the screaming to the heavens that this thread has caused. I know the terrorized panic cleaning this thread has caused.

I have no answers. I have only my whole-hearted belief that the only cure for fear is love so I will say I love you one and all. May God bless us and the whole world-no exceptions.

LOVE LOVE LOVE,
Lilith

[CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity]

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Apr 14, 2009 16:19:08 GMT -5 60isolderthanithot said:

[regarding the woman in the news article] ...

... no matter how squeamish we are about her reflections on us as fellow squalorers. Spitting on her is self-hatred.

There must be a place somewhere for acceptance -- even when she is clearly wrong.

She deserves help too, and I can't see how we'd give help to a person we greeted with, "I'm glad you got arrested, maybe that will force you to clean up and stop neglecting your kids!"

If someone had greeted YOU that way the first time you stepped into this board, what would you have done? Is this the next-to-the-last-place then? Is it not the final destination for those who feel completely helpless and hopeless?

Is there no place on Earth for someone to go with this problem where there won't be hollering and righteous anger and hatred?

Yes, I agree.

One of my concerns was a tendency in this thread to discuss the woman in the news article as if she were something "OTHER". She's a human being, not a "case study".

---

HOWEVER,

I think we need to listen to BreakingFree and HouseworkHater, too.

They were both raised as children of squalorers.

They are eligible for membership here at Stepping Out of Squalor -- because they had their OWN housekeeping squalor issues as adults, and are working (or worked) to change themselves.

In conjunction with this thread, who better for us to learn from, than adult squalorers who can tell us what it was like to be a small CHILD of a squalorer ?

I suggest that all of us (myself included) go back through the 5 pages of this thread and look at the posts of BreakingFree and HouseworkHater.

Their posts are uncomfortable to read. But what a great opportunity to learn the impact our squalor has on our loved ones.

I think we can listen, even if it's hard to do.

BreakingFree and HouseworkHater are simply trying to speak from the perspective of having grown up as children of squalorers.


Squalor is not okay.

That's why the name of this board is
Stepping OUT of Squalor.

-----------

[CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity]

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Apr 14, 2009 15:35:49 GMT -5 heylady1 said:

Being arrested will also (I hope) make her get therapy, perhaps even medication for depression (if needed) certainly some help with regards to her home too. And it will be court ordered so it isn't something she can put off.....this is the main reason I don't feel being arrested was such a bad thing.

This is true nowadays with alcoholism -- that being arrested will often lead to court-ordered treatment.

And it's sometimes true nowadays with more well-known mental illnesses -- as CrazyCatLady said on her post -- that sometimes an arrest can return a mentally ill patient to the proper treatment.

But, long ago, alcoholics and mentally ill persons often died in jails -- or died when locked up in barbaric institutions that didn't correctly understand their illnesses.


Nowadays, squalor is still a foreign concept to most of society. (Squalor isn't understood the way most mental illnesses are understood now).

Not many judges know about squalor. It's highly possible that the judge will just treat her as a criminal.

I think that heylady1 is being unrealistic in thinking that a simple court order will get this woman some magical quick treatment that will get her out of squalor -- and keep her out of squalor -- and reunite the family.

Most courts are still ignorant about squalor syndrome.

I think that jail will just lead to HUMILIATION, which will lead to more depression and hopelessness.

Not a motivator for change.

I recognize the need to put the children first. But I think that jailing the mother WON'T help the children.

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