|
Post by Mrs Hen on Sept 17, 2009 2:20:49 GMT -5
my squalor is completely related to not being able to make decisions. There's all this stuff in my house, I've lived here 30 years this February. I've had 5 kids and 1 husband move out, had 1 new husband and stepson move in, had 2 more kids, and am now sending the youngest from my first marriage off to college this weekend.
Everything is in piles, and I don't know what to do with lots of it. A while back I realized I couldn't put the younger kids clothes away because their dresser is always full. It's always been a tight fit, they share a 6 drawer dresser. But the point is, the dresser was full of 3rd-string clothes, stuff that was torn or stained or pretty snug-fitting.
Once I took all the stuff they weren't wearing out of the drawers, things were neater.
I'm always saving one kids stuff for the next kid, and somewhere along the way I completely lost track of several boxes of baby clothes and bedding, and got new stuff for my '2nd family' And most of these grade-schoolers baby stuff is still in the house, somewhere.
I've got a chance to start fresh with one room next week. I can clean everything out of it before I turn it over to the little brother - he gets to stop sharing with baby sister now.
If I really get all of college-boys stuff out of there, and only move in the new kids stuff that he really wants, I'll have a perfect room. Maybe I can move little sister in there for a few days and go through her room and empty it out. It would feel so great to know that only the stuff they really wanted was in their rooms.
That's what I need, time and focus. I can't clean without spreading stuff out a bit, and as soon as I do everyone shows up like its an archeological dig, wandering off with stuff they remembered they 'used to play with'
It's also really hard to just throw stuff away - I tend to keep broken things that still work, chipped cups, checkers sets that need a couple pennies and nickels to fill in for lost chips, toy cars whose door have fallen off. We play with that sort of thing just fine, but I can't give it to goodwill, they have too much little kid crap as it is.
It's nice writing about this, as I spell it out my head clears a bit and it seems possible.
If it's any help, one thing I heard about collectors was that they weren't respecting their collection, that they needed to get a bit more like a museum curator, and either display or archive the collection in a 'vault' - one place for all the stuff, and then you could rotate it in and out of display. If you really make a big thing out of the collection you clean up everything around it so it really shows up. That worked for me with my dishes, I have 3 sets of dishes, some I use for holidays, and some for every day. When I got really formal with displaying and storing them I was able to use them more, and they didn't end up in random places. I could march right upstairs and set the table for 12 in about 10 minutes. But I don't think I know where the table cloths are ....they should have been stored with the dishes, but I think they ended up in some random linen closet.
Oh, that's another thing about my house. It's old, and patched up. It has 6 bedrooms, but only 2 have closets of any kind. There is no linen or utility closets of any kind, just one front door closet 3 feet wide and whatever I can pitch under the sink. My kids have one 6 drawer dresser to split, my older son has a 3 drawer night stand to keep his clothes in, and a doorless closet. My husband and I keep our clothes in an old kitchen cupboard we hauled upstairs, it's about 30 inches wide and maybe 5 feet tall.
When my first husband left he insisted on getting half the furniture, and since I wasn't letting him have the dining room set or end tables I had inherited, he took most of the dressers and half the kids beds. He also took all the silverware and dinner plates. He insisted on having that stuff so he could furnish a house for the kids for them to stay with him half-time, but within 6 months he had given it all away to 'poor people' and begun hanging out with a woman and her daughter that hated my kids. I never really recovered from that, we all just kept stuff in rubbermaid tubs. That was fine, but once you start having tubs around the house they just seem to wander and loose their focus, and each time things don't work out I'd just go buy another one. Pretty soon there were too many in a room, so I'd keep what the kids really needed in their room, and put the other filled tubs in the hallway.
I think I'm the poster child for the 'want of a nail lost the war' poem.
|
|
|
Post by creativechaos on Oct 1, 2009 0:45:48 GMT -5
howardsgirlfriend, interesting topic!
i disagree. not all squalorers are hoarders.
not all hoarders are squalorers.
more stuff makes it more difficult to clean, yes.
i am "lucky", i'm both. thankfully. or else i would not have found this fantastic group.
|
|
|
Post by wind on Oct 1, 2009 2:34:40 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't think a group that makes up its own "certifications" is any more qualified to name our condition than we are. The "pros"? Says who? The underlying organization is just another group that hopes to create a cash market for its credential - made up from whole cloth, same as the AKC or the folks who tried to put California black hair braiders out of business by creating a "license" that gave the founding group a monopoly on who would be allowed to work with people's hair. Check any book on the sociology of occupations and professions. This is a well known process. Look, I have no particular objection to any particular group. I am saying bluntly: we should not give up our autonomy in any way to students who want to become EXPERTS ON US. The idea is silly on its face. Sheepskin psychosis is not a substitute for our personal truths. We should not accept outsiders' pronouncements on us as if they know one thing we do not know. As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel as if I'm obliged to accept a marketing group's idea of what I should call myself as if it contained any Higher Truth. It does not. It's a MARKETING PACKAGE. Creating professional jargon is just a way to distance Outsiders from Insiders, the better to sell their package of marketing advantages. "What we on this board call squalor" is just as legitimately called squalor as the jargon promoted by brochures made up by Learned Professionals whose overt goal is to communicate WITH ONE ANOTHER, not with us. I'm doing something I don't normally do, in that I'm responding to a post on page 1 without reading the rest of the thread...but...I just want to say: I do definitely agree with you in an "overall" sort of way, and have thought about this a lot. But I think the psychologists are looking at this in a valid and legitimate way, as well. "You are looking at garbage you know needs to be thrown away, and you're not doing it? The thought of throwing it all away is so stressful to you that you just can't even start? That is HOARDING, regardless of the etiology of the inaction!" But I agree that we are not obliged to adhere to and accept the clinical terms thrust upon us by professionals seeking a niche market. I just sort of see the usefulness and reason behind this classification system. But yes, I do think there are two different factors that can be at play behind extreme clutter and squalor. There is the "but what if I need it/this is valuable or meaningful to me" end, and there is the "pathological procrastination" end. And most of "us" are a mix of both, or we live with someone with either one or a mix of both.
|
|
|
Post by wind on Oct 1, 2009 3:17:07 GMT -5
Our community was founded based on ideas from squalorsurvivors.com Squalor Survivors was inspired by Kimmy's original thread at juliemorgenstern.com tinyurl.com/jfk8yKimmy lived in Australia. Her therapist used the word "squalor" -- back in the year 2000. Bottom line: - In USA, many professionals use the word "hoarding" for everything.
- In Australia, many professionals use the word "squalor" for everything.
- Here on "Stepping Out of Squalor", some of us lump the two things together, and others of us differentiate.
- I guess I want to make the case for differentiating between demand-resistance rooted squalor (or, pathological procrastination), and hoarding, and also make the case for lumping them all together. (paradoxical, right?) I'm just saying, there are two, distinct etiological things going on. They are distinctly different, but often work in tandem, especially within families. I think 60 was just saying that a link to a clinical definition about what is wrong with "us" carries no more weight than a post here by a member. This isn't hard science like physics. Our opinions and ideas at this point in time are just as valid as those of the "experts". Because this is very, very "weak science". None of it has been put through the "hypothesis>challenge>theory" science challenge. All of us are making wild, albeit educated, guesses.
|
|
|
Post by sporadic on Oct 1, 2009 9:40:39 GMT -5
I am not a hoarder or squalorer, but I have been messy all of my life. Chronic disorganization. The light bulb of the word "organize" does not go on in my brain - I do not know how to organize and keep my life clutter-free...I have no idea where to even begin. I think the chronic procrastination is due to not understanding (or liking) the process of organizing.
|
|
|
Post by 60isolderthanithot on Oct 1, 2009 9:53:31 GMT -5
Wind, what if there are 25 distinct things going on? Or 1200? What if it's more related to Baby 19 (of Jerome Kagan's study) rather than anything that any of the new rising stars of Hoarding Studies have described?
There isn't enough data to say much at all. It's not time to limit the search to two phenotypes or 1500. I do think if we look at what's happened in recent history to the subjects of "rising star" shrinkonomics, the psychs did better than the patients.
There are people in here who've lost marriages, children, liberty and fortune at the hands of people with Authority. It's not silly to step back and think very hard about who we confer with enough prestige to become Oprah's Expert on X.
|
|
|
Post by sleepymom on Oct 1, 2009 10:50:05 GMT -5
60, I was just thinking something along those lines, but couldn`t come up with a good way to say it. I think there are a lot of different things going on that may only be related by the obvious result: clutter/mess/squalor. I have a lot of Mrs Hen`s type of problem, broken things that still work. I`ve just recently realized, hey, I CAN throw these things away (unless they are things I`m actively using & can`t afford to replace ). I save some, not all, sentimental type things I don`t really have a use for, but can at times get rid of those, especially if I find someone with a use for a particular thing. There are housekeeping things I never learned, like the need for washing walls from time to time. On top of that, I`ve had a major loss, serious health problems, a spouse who doesn`t do anything around the house, and children that I didn`t train well because when they were young I thought I could/should do it all. The result is something that looks like 2-3 on the NSGCD scale much of the time, but the roots are much different and would need a different "professional" approach than would fit someone like pickles or perfectmess (not picking on you, just names that popped into my head). Not sure where I wanted to go with this, but I really wanted to say it.
|
|
|
Post by Meme on Oct 2, 2009 0:26:25 GMT -5
I think that there are folks who benefit and need professionals and that there good people who take training to help us- not every thing they say or we say is right for us but often if we take the time to consider what they say we will be able to take out what we need- alas- every thing does cost money including our own squalor and or hoarding - if we had a professional organizer help us we can learn to do these things on our own- some books help us and some don't - in the end- it really does come down to us and what action we decide to take to remove the squalor- I no longer consider my self as a person who hoards nor do I see squalor in my home- I still feel like there is too much stuff but it is clean and also I am still not a great organizer but I am learning- the is the best thing we can do for ourselves- I do not feel bad because I cannot do these things but I do work at continuing to maintain and letting go and organizing- books did give me some help and also watching pros and also being here- but I was the one who had to take the action and listen to what was good for me- and accept who I am as a worthy person who can live above squalor = I made my own personal scale of what I needed and what I wanted and went from there when I go to see my friends I am not scaling there homes- I am seeing them as who they are in my fellowship and friendship=
|
|
|
Post by fluffernut - now Jannie on Oct 2, 2009 9:16:17 GMT -5
At least my house is cleaner than my Mother's. She lives alone and is 86 and blind, so no one expects her to clean. My two SILs have personally told me (and their brother, my husband) that I must be mentally ill to have such a messy house. . I must be a low-level high-functioning hoarder. Yep that's right.
|
|
|
Post by creativechaos on Dec 29, 2009 2:31:04 GMT -5
bump
|
|
|
Post by yearning4order on Dec 29, 2009 3:07:56 GMT -5
I've been thinking more about this because I'm not sure sometimes what I am. I am definitely a squalorer. I think there may have been times that I dabbled with hoarding, or that I overshop and possibly hoard at specific points in time. But I'm not sure it's always for the same reasons that hoarders hoard. I'm going to preface this with a healthy dose of: I don't know if it's been so important to think I am absolutely purely *this* or *that*, but to see the potential spectrum that I am on and work with the things that come up. For the squalor, yes I think that absence of neglect hits it on the head--I had many spots on this house that simply didn't see a vacuum or dusting of the surface for 3 or more years. But they weren't all cluttered. I've talked before about the purpose of squalor, especially in my bed room, that this seemed like a childhood attempt to create a fortress in my room to keep night time intruders (real ones, sadly, family members) out. I also had / have a very OCD mother who obsessed about the cleanliness of the house and was quite vicious about it at times. I'm pretty sure I really was being screamed at about the cleaning, it wasn't just demand resistance. But it's also quite likely I developed a great deal of defiance in the face of her unjust and insane raging about this, especially given the fact that furniture and not kids seem to warrant this level of rage over "protection" and "care". I have a recollection of the first time I got pneumonia (which happened to me regularly when I was 5-7), and awaking at night and choking because my lungs were so filled I couldn't breathe. Of course I started crying, which made the congestion worse, and my parents came to see what was wrong. Now as an adult I've read about pneumonia and know that with the symptoms I was experiencing I should have been taken to the hospital immediately. Instead my parents started fighting and went back into their bedroom to fight. I remember thinking " ?" and finally "OK fine, then I'll just lay here and die." I was actually astonished that I woke up in the morning. That was when I was 5, but the message was pretty clear: abandon all hope. There were only two times in my adult life that I can remember wanting more stuff was during my incest and physical abuse counseling--after many of my sessions all I wanted to do was buy myself "clean" clothing. I ended up with a huge amount of clothing, but seemed to be quite mobile, and would readily part with half my things to go travel, move a few states or countries away. The other time--in my married years we struggled financially for many, many years. My ex is a man who to this day struggles to find and maintain consistent employment. He has 2 degrees, and a lucrative set of teaching certifications; he is good with kids. And he can piss of any person in a position of authority within 24 hours of identifying them, and proceed to be forced to resign before he can become permanently contracted like no man I've ever seen. This led to a great deal of keeping anything free or low cost that ever came our way. I also took up selling on eBay and so acquired a tremendous amount of things as inventory--some of which I actually sold. But these two things--the poverty coupled with the eBay selling were not good in terms of my sense of knowing what and when to bring things home, how much we reasonably needed, etc. I was quite selective--for instance, there was a summer where I seemed to come across amazing stashes of yarn in Good Will and at garage sales. I didn't just buy any old yarn I saw--I bought stuff I knew was incredibly expensive, European sock wools, cashmere, alpaca, angora, all of it amazing. But the reality is that I didn't get as much time to learn to expand my skill to keep up with what I was bringing in. Some of this later was used by my daughter as she learned to knit & crochet, but the bulk of it went right back to Goodwill. I remember having some of those feelings that hoarders talk about, pained to see it go, and I literally had to tell my husband at the time "Just take it now, if you leave it in the back of the car I might go get it." So I remember having those feelings at the time, but ... it hasn't been quite so long lasting. But I was cool once he drove the stuff to Goodwill, and I not only didn't want to go buy it back--I didn't regret it going. It did not pain me. The divorce created a horrible, horrible depressive low and my squalor exploded--I didn't hoard, I just didn't clean. I don't know if any of this defines anything for anyone else. What I can say is this: when I'm in pain or deeply economically insecure I have to watch what I bring in. If I can remember that God is going to provide the goodies, I tend to be more relaxed about getting rid of stuff, and not buying so much to bring in. I've been far, far more discerning about purchases in the last 6 months than the 6 years previous. I would say that might separate me from the folks who really identify as hoarders because I believe you likely have to do far more work than I had to in order to find some peace around this. I may share the tendency, but it's not my "favorite" one to act out. The squalor on the other hand is a much bigger and scarier thing. Cleaning causes confusion, organization causes confusion, and it causes painful negative self talk. As you guys have chatted me through this it's gotten much better, but still comes up. I still don't fully understand regular defending, and have a great deal of fear that I might have one emotional bump in the road and find myself right back where I was, goat paths, trash all over, dust and cobwebs everywhere, mice poop all over, and rotting food in the fridge--and deeply scared to open the door if someone knocks on it. The squalor thing I fully relate to, and I can understand how we get sink pudding and rotting things in bedrooms as well as a kid's clothing collection that stretches 7 years of sizes that no longer fit! That's where the real pain is for me (and has been for as long as I can remember)--in the regular and seasonal types of cleaning.
|
|
|
Post by rickie on Dec 29, 2009 3:37:34 GMT -5
Yearning: wow what a powerful post. I can relate to a lot of the things you said.
|
|
|
Post by Rennie Ellen on Dec 29, 2009 12:47:48 GMT -5
Howardsgirlfriend,
I have a problem with clutter and I'm NOT a hoarder.
My clutter is directly related to the low energy levels connected with my various health challenges.
I felt validated when the nurses from the in-home care agency told me I'm not the only disabled person dealing with this. I'm not alone! And I, like many other disabled people, will get my home decluttered and organized now that I have help.
Since the aide came, the difference in my home has been night and day. Yes, there's the stash and dash to deal with in my bedroom closet, but just think -- that's ALL there is in my home sort through! I can walk through my apartment IN THE DARK and not have to worry about stepping over piles of paperwork, clothes and books. Even though I can't sleep in my bed because of the old mattress, the bedroom is neat and clean and, for Housing safety regulations, I can make it to the bedroom window in case of a fire with NO problem! On the days the aide doesn't come, I'm keeping things maintained.
I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and it's NOT a train!
|
|
|
Post by dailystruggle on Dec 29, 2009 17:37:19 GMT -5
I can see what 60 is saying about pros. I see people who have "degrees" that no nothing at all, yet they're still more than willing to take dollars from people. I also know people who have no degrees to their names whatsoever and they know a lot.
One great example of this is in the technology field. You have technical support who are supposed to have degrees and I know more than them, they just read their script and can't deviate from it at all. Then, you have my husband who doesn't have a degree, but he has ten years experience in the field and he's really good at his job.
Another example: Are both straight A doctors and straight C doctors still called doctors? Yes. Are some of them notably worse than other doctors? Yes.
Third: on Oprah, some of her "experts", including Dr. Phil didn't go to college at all or they dropped out and never got degrees, yet they pass themselves off as doctors and experts. My point is just because they say that they are experts doesn't make them experts.
And, Y4O, I can totally relate to you. It's just so bad that even towering hordes of stuff didn't keep either of us safe.
|
|
|
Post by Rory on Dec 31, 2009 19:54:48 GMT -5
"towering hordes of stuff didn't keep either of us safe"
There is a saying in some of the 12 step fellowships that "We can never get enough of what we don't want".
However much I hoarded I never felt safe.
Thanks for reminding me.
|
|