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Post by creativechaos on Feb 18, 2010 1:56:29 GMT -5
well, lioness, what a lot of work you put into this and as usual, you have done a wonderful and most helpful job. thanks so very much! frost and steketee view hoarding as an anxiety disorder, so it would be natural to have anxiety, stress, and confusion at having to make decisions about what to do about discarding things. i happen to be ocd and a lotta other stuff too. but what i feel about discarding (AND acquiring) is anxiety. thanks for the links to this, lioness. i have submitted my comments. really appreciate your giving me a heads up on this. luv, cc
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Post by mommie4life on Feb 26, 2010 7:28:25 GMT -5
Just read it myself, and a few clarifications, just because it seems important. (You did a wonderful job by the way, but think it might help get their specifications across a little bit. Sorry, the OCD kicking in....)
Their new classification is only if:
Meaning they'll include it in the other disorders as well, but will also have another classification for those who don't have OCD or another disorder and only have a hoarding problem.
It also has guidelines to diagnose how bad the disorder is (whether you recognize it's a problem or not) and has a stipulation for those who excessively buy/steal things that they don't need or have space for.
*EDIT* Corrected date in subject
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Post by justsomeone on Mar 4, 2010 2:37:38 GMT -5
Well, I don't like this. They seem to mostly rely on drugs to solve many emotional problems. I know it sometimes helps, but their claims that some of what is at DSM "is a brain thing" is nonsense. They never shown any scientific proof for those claims. Mental illness go to DSM by vote, not medical data.
For those reasons, I think this is a step back.
Please don't take it as I'm talking about psychoanalysis or saying this is a better approach. Neither I'm a scientologist. I don't want this topic to become a debate on this too. If someone would like to talk more about this send a private message to me.
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mamamcd
New Member
Joined: February 2010
Posts: 25
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Post by mamamcd on Mar 4, 2010 16:21:37 GMT -5
So, to classified in the DSM, hoarding as a disorder must occur separately than what is recognized as a result of some other disorder (anxiety, OCD, ADHD, Depression) I would say hoarders who fall under this category (w/out a causative or associated disorder) would be very very rare. From my experiences with myself and other hoarders/squalorees I haven't met a single person who hasn't had some kind of associated illness or major life changing event that triggered the behaviour. Mostly it seems like a symptom to me and not the disease - kind of like describing the hangover as a disease all on its own.
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Post by mommie4life on Mar 6, 2010 8:32:14 GMT -5
The life changing event trigger is the one they are talking about. It is possible, but as you said unlikely.
*EDIT* Corrected date in subject
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 6, 2010 10:03:08 GMT -5
Just read it myself, and a few clarifications, just because it seems important. (You did a wonderful job by the way, but think it might help get their specifications across a little bit. Sorry, the OCD kicking in....)
Their new classification is only if: Meaning they'll include it in the other disorders as well, but will also have another classification for those who don't have OCD or another disorder and only have a hoarding problem.
It also has guidelines to diagnose how bad the disorder is (whether you recognize it's a problem or not) and has a stipulation for those who excessively buy/steal things that they don't need or have space for. So, to classified in the DSM, hoarding as a disorder must occur separately than what is recognized as a result of some other disorder (anxiety, OCD, ADHD, Depression) I would say hoarders who fall under this category (w/out a causative or associated disorder) would be very very rare. From my experiences with myself and other hoarders/squalorees I haven't met a single person who hasn't had some kind of associated illness or major life changing event that triggered the behaviour. Mostly it seems like a symptom to me and not the disease - kind of like describing the hangover as a disease all on its own. The life changing event trigger is the one they are talking about. It is possible, but as you said unlikely. Examples of Life-changing events:
We have members who were abused, as children, as teens, or as adults -- and they've said that they've built up symbolic walls of protection with stuff.
We do have many members here with various types of post-traumatic stress syndrome. That can trigger hoarding -- as a wall against the pain.
Suddenly inheriting a houseful of items from a relative who has passed away. You have a limited amount of time to clean out the deceased person's home. This may or may not have been someone you cared about. But you are in a hurry, and don't have much help, and end up carting all the stuff back to your own home, to "sort through when there is spare time". But you work full-time, and have a family, and the "spare time" never happens. The boxes of the relative's belongings start crowding your home. You become overwhelmed and don't know what to do with it. MANY of our members have written about this scenario. They weren't messy until this happened. They lack the organizational skills to process all this stuff.
A drastic change in circumstances, such as a severe illness in the family, or a divorce. Such events can cause you to have a dire financial need to work two jobs. Suddenly, all you do is work at your job or jobs for many many hours. You don't have the skills to work 60 hours per week, and care for a sick family member, and raise a family, AND deal with housekeeping. You don't take the trash out as often. Housekeeping tasks pile up. One day, you look around and realize that STUFF is EVERYWHERE, and you feel overwhelmed, and have no idea how to deal with it all. Despite all the chaos in your personal life, you might still be mentally and emotionally balanced. Just stressed and tired. However, after a while, you might discover you've acquired the habit of not regularly disposing of items. And your home has become dysfunctional. And it becomes a habit to ignore it all. In my personal non-scientific opinion, it's possible to NOT be depressed, but still be overwhelmed. I think that even after such a family crisis is over (the sick family member gets well. You've gotten over the divorce and are happily dating. You get a raise and don't have to work overtime anymore. You feel balanced and happy.). -- Even AFTER these situations are resolved, and your life is back on an even keel, you might have gotten into the HABIT of being super messy. And no longer regularly throw things away. And the prospect of dealing with your acquired mess is overwhelming. To a social worker entering the home, you might appear to be a "hoarder". But ... who knows if you really are or not? If your home is full of stuff and dysfunctional, and you have distress dealing with it ... are you a hoarder? Perhaps.
Some hoarding triggers can be compared to ... Someone who began drinking as a way to cope with some stress in their life, such as caring for a spouse with a long-term illness. As a result of drinking, she/he acquired the habit of being an alcoholic. Even if the original stress is resolved, (the spouse recovers and life is back to normal), the drinking habit remains. At this point, the alcoholic is just an alcoholic. The other factors are no longer factors. Nevertheless, the person has to go through a great deal of effort to learn to stop drinking, because the habit itself is now so strong. Okay, I know that hoarding isn't really an addiction, and my comparison has holes in it ... but it was the best metaphor I could come up with. A metaphor for a temporary life event causing beginning hoarding behaviours. Yet later on, the life event is resolved and life has gone back to normal. But the home is full of stuff, and the habit of hoarding remains, simply because it's a habit, and it requires a great deal of effort to overcome this pattern.
Other people who are triggered into hoarding by life-changing events -- such as those with post-traumatic stress -- are still living with the post-traumatic stress on an ongoing basis. And therefore, they need treatment for BOTH the post-traumatic stress AND the hoarding.
The way I'm reading description of hoarding written by the DSM-5 team .... is that if you cured or eased the OCD or depression or post-traumatic stress ... or other problem, would the person still be a hoarder? If so, was it caused by the other condition, or simply "occurring at the same time" (I really hate the word "co-morbid"). Sorting all this out ... would be a way of determining if the person has hoarding as a separate unique disorder, or not.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 6, 2010 10:29:27 GMT -5
- For OCD ... OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is defined as - having specific obsessive thoughts that plague you on a regular basis (such as recurrent visions of certain strange scenarios). You have no control over these thoughts, and you get no joy from them. They just appear in your brain regularly and are called recurring "intrusive" thoughts.
And/Or
- having compulsive behaviors such as checking things over and over, or counting over and over, or having to do things in a certain order, no matter what. You have no control over these compulsions, and you take no joy from them. Your body is just compelled to do them.
That is a gross over-simplification, but the basis is that you have these recurring obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors that you get no joy from, but they just happen regularly without your control. The KEY is that the OCD person DOESN'T want these obsessions or compulsions. The obsessions or compulsions cause the OCD person distress, and he/she would like to STOP. The OCD person wants relief and therefore seeks treatment by going to a doctor. As a complete contrast to OCD, some hoarders find that hoarding itself is SOOTHING. They find that the barrier of stuff is comforting. They would find distress at having the stuff removed. They are resistant to treatment. This is why the DSM-5 group is proposing that hoarding no longer be considered an aspect of OCD.
Examples: Hoarding possibly CAUSED BY an OCD condition:if you had had an unstoppable compulsion to collect and SAVE one-inch purple wooden buttons, (and no other size or color or material would suffice) and that compulsion ruled your life, and you got no enjoyment from it. And you desperately wanted relief from that compulsion. That might be OCD. Hoarding possibly NOT caused by OCD:If you enjoyed the pretty sparkly buttons, and had fun with them, and also collected other similar objects, and took comfort at having the buttons around, then it might be hoarding alone. Hoarding possibly caused by OCD:If you feel COMPELLED to save toilet paper tubes, (and they HAVE to be the brown ones and not the white ones), and you count them regularly. But you get no enjoyment from saving them, and wish you didn't save them, then it might be OCD. Hoarding as a separate disorder:If you feel GOOD about saving toilet paper tubes, because you want to donate them to a school (but you have no room to save them, and never donate them) ... then you might be a hoarder.
Disclaimer: I'm not a scientist. And I realize that I'm oversimplifying. But this is how I'm reading the DSM-5 descriptions.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 6, 2010 10:47:04 GMT -5
- There are members here at SOS who say that they don't have the other conditions such as OCD, anxiety, depression, or post-traumatic stress. Not many, but there are some. I myself DON'T have the other psychological conditions. I'm not depressed, anxious, OCD, or anything else. No emotional scars from trauma. I had a happy childhood. I've had some happy times and some sad times in my life, but nothing that impacted my housekeeping skills. There are times when my home has been in deep squalor and I was happy. and also when sad. There are times when my home was clean and I was happy. and also when sad. My emotional and mental health seems to have absolutely nothing to do with my housekeeping. I'm just extremely messy and I don't throw things away. There isn't really a reason why. It's just a decades-long habit. I'm not sure WHY I have "persistent difficulty disposing of items". I don't have strong urges to save things. I don't have have distress at the thought of getting rid of things. I suppose that I have some indecision. Most of my difficulty is that I'm "Demand Resistant" about housekeeping. "Demand Resistance" is described on the following thread: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=402Clickable link for Demand Resistance: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=favorites&action=display&thread=16221For me, sorting and disposing of items is just another "tedious housekeeping task" that I avoid, along with all the other "tedious housekeeping tasks". I tend to say, about EVERYTHING housekeeping-related -- including cleaning and washing and vacuuming, as well as sorting and discarding -- "I don't want to, and you can't make me" (I resist doing things, even if I'm the one asking this of myself). So I am not a "classic" hoarder. I certainly don't have any emotional attachment to items. Nor do I save items just in case they might be useful. But according to the new description, I am a hoarder. I have too much stuff, and I resist dealing with it, and the resulting mess makes "active living areas" of my home dysfunctional, and all of this this impacts my entire life.
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Post by Platypus on Mar 20, 2010 8:58:32 GMT -5
Thanks Lioness. I wonder if some hoarding can be related to a prehistoric survival need to 'store acorns for the winter?
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Post by Meme on Mar 22, 2010 23:17:32 GMT -5
interesting but a bit confusing for me yet-I do think in is a mental block that I have and not easy to overcome-- I am not sure what kind of help it is to me to know this if there is not a type of treatment///? - I watch the tv shows and notice they generally call it as a mental illness in most of the shows--- right now I have gone the opposite direction and have been letting to of things now because some how I hate them --and just want the stuff gone-- it seems to be a burden now -poor Meme got better with the hoarding and squalor only to fall in to depression about keeping things-
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Post by mommie4life on Mar 23, 2010 22:15:45 GMT -5
Summary for you: Hoarding was considered the side effect of various mental disorders in the past. They are actually considering hoarding as it's own disorder and that you can be a hoarder without having another condition such as OCD.
*EDIT* Corrected date in subject
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Post by Arid on Mar 26, 2010 19:58:56 GMT -5
Platypus: There are people who believe that hoarding is an over-exaggerated version of "storing acorns for the winter." This is akin to some people likening panic attacks to being an over-developed "fight or flight" response to stress(es). By the same token, allergies, asthma, and autoimmune diseases result from an over-reaction of the immune system in the human body. In each instance, it is a case of "too much of a good thing." The "good thing" becomes a "bad" thing. Fire is the same way; it can keep us warm, or it can burn down the house when it gets out of control.
Arid
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Apr 3, 2010 17:33:23 GMT -5
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UPDATE:
When I started this thread, I had input the wrong date as deadline to reply.
The CORRECT deadline for the general public to reply is
April 20, 2010.
Give your input, please!
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Post by eagle on Apr 4, 2010 0:18:53 GMT -5
I will unsticky this in a couple weeks.
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Post by eagle on Apr 16, 2010 16:55:32 GMT -5
I am unstickying this thread and it will roll off the front page in time.
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