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Post by Glitz Blitz on Oct 13, 2012 7:53:40 GMT -5
Hi, this is Glitz Blitz...
...okay, so I've been lurking on this forum for years!!! now, but I just registered in order to comment on this topic. (Yes, I will do an introduction in the appropriate thread, but let me get some stuff off my chest first, k?)  Whenever I watch an episode of hoarders I come here to see what you guys think of it. Sometimes I also go to the A&E forum to see what the cleanies think - but in the most cases, I don't bother, because they say the same things over and over again anyways. I have to agree with bobolink that I didnt perceive the action that was taken as putting her in jail or in a mental hospital. They just did not want her to live alone anymore, and although I had a feeling that this bummed her out quite a lot, she also had a hint of relief in her face, and she did not object to it. So I do think that while a discussion about forcing someone into jail or psychological treatment is important, it just does not apply to the situation presented in the episode. I also agree with what @didreaming, ClutterBlind and @lioness and some others said: Shanna was obviously a hoarder. She obviously also had other problems. And since these other problems were overshadowing her hoarding problems, this shouldn't have been on the show. This situation was not about hoarding. So I have also been at the A&E forum, and the people commenting there are judgmental and merciless. As was to be expected. There are two ways Shanna is perceived: 1. "Disgusting. I had to puke."
2. "She is mad."People are wondering whether she has Down Syndrome or Asperger's or whether she's just retarded. I cannot believe the stupidity of them. Shanna obviously is smart, as you can see by her word choice, and she is able to communicate, even if it takes some time for her to wrap her head around new information. That's understandable, isn't it? Some folks just need to put labels on stuff they do not understand instead of trying to understand it. I just loved your comment, @oliveoilmom, that for the first years of your marriage you didn't know you were supposed to mop up the kitchen floors. I totally understand! I feel like Shanna knew that something was wrong with the way she lived, otherwise she would have let people into her house. But she was not able to change because she She did not really want to eat poop, like some people say. She was just exaggerating, because Matt and Dr Robin laid such emphasis on it. She even cited "Intervention" (which I've never seen, but I know the gist). Those are pretty abstract thoughts. I feel like jokes and laughing were a coping strategy for her, to deal with the stress. We all know that you start to identify with your clutter. And Shanna was in such direct contact with her squalor, she didn't mind touching it, she didn't mind eating in it, she didn't even smell it anymore. She seemed to identify with it more than most other hoarders. And maybe that's why she said these things about eating the contaminated food, because they were going to take it away from here, and what then? What happens afterwards? That's pretty scary! What her squalor seemed to say to me is: "I am worthless. I am ***. Look how miserable I am!" And ant the same time: "Don't come near me. You don't want me. Stay away!"I do not want to throw any bold statements around, but this is the way someone behaves who has had a deeply traumatic childhood. I do not want to trigger anybody, butr you know what I'm getting at. Did you see how uncomfortable she was when people made physical contact? That's just the most logical explanation for me, and I had that feeling right from the start... you know? (On a sidenote, she also reminded me of Kathy Bates, mainly because of the voice.  Sorry for the long post. I really liked Shanna, my heart went out to her and I hope she gets happy. (Please excuse any mistakes. English is not my native tongue.) |
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Post by Ally on Oct 13, 2012 8:42:47 GMT -5
Glitz Blitz, Well said! I couldn't agree with you more, I was thinking the exact same thing when she said she wanted to stay there one more day, one more meal. This was her home, the only place she knew. FYI, no need to appologize about the language. You have better grammar and spelling than most Americans.  Ally |
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Post by dayeanu on Oct 13, 2012 12:07:51 GMT -5
And welcome to our boards, Glitz. I'm glad you spoke up!
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Post by maggie on Oct 13, 2012 13:20:17 GMT -5
Not saying it's okay and not saying it was the case here, because I don't watch the show, but there is also an aspect to hoarding where people hoard pieces of their body -- e.g. fingernail clippings, etc. So it is possible that she had some of that disordered thinking going on.
I just want to comment on the very compelling comparison to washing dishes in the toilet. I'm sure 99.9999% of people would agree that it would not be okay to wash children's dishes in the toilet. However, as to whether she should have the right to choose to wash her own dishes in the toilet and eat off of them, I can see three general responses, and all of them have merit.
1) No, not okay, unsanitary, obviously if someone has chosen this then we need to intervene.
2) Her life, her body, her dishes, her choice and as long as she is not harming others, then we have no right to intervene.
3) It depends. Is she making this choice with a reasonable awareness of the consequences of her actions, societal expectations, and her alternatives? If she is making a reasoned choice, then let her be. If she is not able to make a reasoned choice, intervene. Of course, this leads back to the first two positions, where some people would say that the fact that she has reasoned out that it is okay just proves that she is unable to reason properly, and others would say that if she is aware that it is taboo in our society (note our society -- there are places where you would wash and draw drinking water from the same water body that is used as a sewer) and is aware of the health consequences of the contamination and can make a realistic assessment of how likely contamination is, then she can choose for herself.
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Post by Glitz Blitz on Oct 13, 2012 13:33:25 GMT -5
Off Topic: thanks for the warm welcome, @deayanu! I have spent a lot of time challenging in chat today and I got so much done! I'm very glad I finally joined this board for real. Thanks to you, too, @ally! I try my very best. |
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Post by sunshineshouse on Oct 13, 2012 20:33:06 GMT -5
I haven't watched the show, but I'm following the posts on this thread. From what I can gather, Shanna lived with her now-deceased mother who also collected the jugs, etc of poop and pee? I'm trying to sort out how much of this was learned behavior. Also have to wonder if Shanna worked or went out socially at all, did she not use the bathroom facilities. So was the toilet in the house broken? For twenty years?
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Post by joyinvirginia on Oct 13, 2012 21:39:23 GMT -5
Hi Glitz Blitz! Sunshine house, yes the toilet facilities had not been functional for about twenty years according to Matt Paxton the ” extreme cleaning specialist”. Shanna stated at the beginning that she was on disability, and she did not seem to have a physical problem, so I am thinking she has some type of mental disability or illness. The therapist Dr. Zasio and Matt both said because of confidentiality they could not discuss anything about any specific diagnosis Shanna has except what was shown on TV. she does have some type of problem that is chronic and that makes it impossible for her to live with her family. On his podcast, Matt said ” Shanna s family is not equipped to manage her.” Matt also stated that the first housing arrangements did not work out, and she was finally placed in some type of group setting with the help of an after care coordinator the production company has, and her local therapist. From what Matt said, I got the impression that continued incontinence was an issue in Shanna s placement. The mother and Shanna had collected gallon plastic juice jugs. Their waste first went into a bucket, then mother would transfer the waste to the gallon jugs. There were THOUSANDS of theses jugs in the house, all over the yard. Only reason it was not reported sooner, there was a tall fence around the yard. Matt said Washington state, where Shanna lives, has a regulation, you cannot transport more than teen thousand gallons of hazardous waste at one time. That is why they needed to contract for TWO TANKER TRUCKS to haul the human waste from the property. The two full time haz mat specialists spent two full days emptying the jugs and filling the tankers. I posted earlier link to Matt s podcast you can listen on the computer, www.5decisionsaway.com and listen to #50. He gives more details. This is extreme, but remember - this was a family that had a crisis and needed help, and the help was more than they could have afforded. The production company, the cleaners, the mental health folks, they provided a needed service and probably helped keep Shanna from becoming homeless. The family was facing losing the house. This way they were able to retain ownership and make something off the sale to help with Shannas housing. |
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Post by oliveoilmom on Oct 14, 2012 1:59:55 GMT -5
I'd like to address two things.
Someone said that Asperger Syndrome was mentioned in relation to Shanna. AS doesn't cause that. It also doesn't cause retardation. Most people with AS have above average IQ's. AS isn't just a higher functioning "Rain Man". Not at all. It is on the autistic spectrum but it isn't the same as classic autism nor is it just a milder form of it. It has it's own set of symptoms and possible issues. Not everyone has every issue. Yes, some with AS may actually not understand why they should clean this or that if it doesn't bother them. Some may have executive dysfunction where they physically cannot coordinate it. Some are extremely neat and minimalist. While many with AS don't like to shower or take a bath, most do like to be clean. It's the water issue, not the "I want to be dirty" issue.
I have AS. Diagnosed later in life because it wasn't even thought about when I was young. Yes, you have to tell me some things, just like Shanna said, but AS will not cause you to not know that you cant have a house full of poop.
The second thing is this. If I lived in a house that for some reason had no bathroom, I would just go outside to pee and poo. Here's a wierd thing. I have a friend who is a grown man, my age. Born and raised in the country but he's also a soldier in the reserves. An officer. He won't pee inside. He walks outside to pee. His wife said even when he gets up at night, he will go pee off the porch. He's never peed in a toilet in that house. That's wierd.
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Post by dayeanu on Oct 14, 2012 8:52:23 GMT -5
Agree with you about Asperger's. It would be hard to imagine the woman's problems as described would be result of AS. DGS has mild AS. He's known among friends and acquaintances as "Walking Google." Ask him ANYTHING - he can probably give you a detailed explanation. This is one symptom of AS. Children with AS are often known as "little professors." DGS loves to be clean and smell nice. Almost obsessed with it. He does have some difficulty reading social cues and responding "appropriately." He has specific reactions to stress that are typical of AS. He's a sweet, compassionate boy with a good heart, but a bit "Spock"-like.
Re: "going" outside - isn't weird. Humans have been doing it for thousands upon thousands of years. Even in modern times, everyone having an indoor flushing toilet is a fairly new concept.
(the problem arises when a large number of people live in a small area. Then the whole outdoor thing becomes a problem.)
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Post by Glitz Blitz on Oct 14, 2012 10:41:27 GMT -5
Hi OliveOilMom and dayeanu,
I totally agree with you - I guess I was misunterstood. I was complaining about people on the A&E community board who said that Shanna might have Asperger's. Because she CLEARLY hasn't!! Also she clearly hasn't Down Syndrome, but people over there were thinking she might.
I really get angry when people do not understand someone and instead of trying to, they just slam down the nextbest label, just in order to have some category. Drives me crazy.
(I do not refer to anyone on this board!)
On the other thing: Yes, using a toilet is a habit. That's why we have to do potty training with the little kids - because it does not come "naturally" (whatever that means).
As joyinvirginia mentioned, Matt Paxton reported that Shanna is in a more healthy living situation now but she still is not using the toilet everytime she has to go. That is another indicator that we are talking about a habit here. Just like in the examples you two just gave.
I really hope Shanna is happier now.
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