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Post by clearwaterush on Feb 13, 2009 6:45:20 GMT -5
:)I can keep my house usable most of the time-except when I backslide. (Squalor) >:(I need to be a whole lot cleaner with my body and habits. (Body Squalor)
???What is mentioned below;-Is this Clothes Squalor or Clothes Hoarding? ;DAnd I recon I have clothes squalor because I can only get rid of a few things-but have lots of selection of clothes-even if they don't fit, need mended, or taken up, or out of style...maybe they will come back in-my dickies or turtlenecks-did-and bell bottoms. Turning down free clothes or sack buys or church rummage clothes sales is my downfall...........
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Post by Gryfon on Feb 13, 2009 7:02:30 GMT -5
I think I'm a bit of both. I hoard things which may be useful, just seems such a waste to recycle perfectly good jars with lids as I may get around to making jam and chutney some day, although I never seem to get around to making it as I always have housework to do.
I don't mind throwing out rubbish, but I will keep elastic bands, paper clips, handy plastic boxes and shoe boxes which I'm sure I can put something in. But then because I keep these bits and I'm not brilliant at housework it ends up as piles of stuff around the house, to which rubbish is added so it becomes a pile of stuff I want and stuff I don't want. Then it all seems like too much to sort so I shut down, my piles of stuff become bigger and bigger and I struggle more to deal with it!
So I think one thing can lead to another.
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Post by dayeanu on Feb 13, 2009 10:09:47 GMT -5
CC, thanks for this info. I will check this out: "frost, steketee, and saxena are the people to read for accurate and compassionate information on hoarding."
I don't know if I'm a true hoarder or just a clutterer with hoarder tendencies. I tend to think the latter. But then yesterday when I was sorting bubble wrap into large pieces with large bubbles, large pieces with small bubbles, small pieces with large bubbles, etc. - at moments like that I really wonder.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Feb 13, 2009 12:03:43 GMT -5
- frost, steketee, and saxena are the people to read for accurate and compassionate information on hoarding. For those who may have missed what I wrote ... Although CreativeChaos caught it ... I did bury all the info within the humongous amount of links I gave out. Here is the info about those three : -
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Post by messyang on Feb 13, 2009 15:31:55 GMT -5
I apologize for my first reponse. I was not aware how hoarding works, and I owe everyone an apology. I thought it meant people who were afraid to throw away anything for fear they may need it one day. Sorry for any offense.
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Post by dayeanu on Feb 13, 2009 18:12:22 GMT -5
Messyang, I liked your post. It was honest, and I could feel where you are at. I have a nice collection of bubble wrap, if you'd like. . .
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Feb 14, 2009 10:09:53 GMT -5
Just so I don't look like a voyeur, here's my own breakdown of the difference:
A squalorer never bothers to throw away the old, empty tub of butter that still has a bit of butter in it.
A hoarder cleans it and keeps it for future use, or because their beloved grandma went shopping and picked it up at the store for them while she was there.
A squalorer-hoarder keeps the tub for future use or because of emotional needs, but never bothers to clean it.
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Post by dayeanu on Feb 14, 2009 11:04:14 GMT -5
I think I'm a bit of both. I hoard things which may be useful, just seems such a waste to recycle perfectly good jars with lids as I may get around to making jam and chutney some day, although I never seem to get around to making it as I always have housework to do. I don't mind throwing out rubbish, but I will keep elastic bands, paper clips, handy plastic boxes and shoe boxes which I'm sure I can put something in. But then because I keep these bits and I'm not brilliant at housework it ends up as piles of stuff around the house, to which rubbish is added so it becomes a pile of stuff I want and stuff I don't want. Then it all seems like too much to sort so I shut down, my piles of stuff become bigger and bigger and I struggle more to deal with it! SO TRUE! This made me wonder if I have a split personality and am writing under another name sometimes!
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Post by clearwaterush on Feb 14, 2009 15:30:41 GMT -5
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Feb 14, 2009 16:34:00 GMT -5
= DISREPAIR:Relationship between disrepair and squalor/hoarding
Sometimes squalor/hoarding can lead to disrepair, as follows: I think that if a person is a squalorer or a hoarder, they might be embarrassed to let repair persons in. So then minor problems are never fixed ... - a leaky pipe eventually becomes a major basement flood.
- a tiny leak in the roof eventually rots out the underpinnings -- and the ceilings eventually collapse.
- a minor electrical problem evolves into a major electrical problem, and she ends up with no heat for the winter, and/or being unable to wash laundry.
- minor moisture problems become severely dangerous mold.
- a problem toilet is not fixed, and the resident ends up living in 4th degree squalor -- either continuing to use the non-flushing toilet, or using a corner of the floor instead -- or using bottles and jars to store waste in until the resident has time to remove them from the home. Yes, this happens. Note that several of us members have lived that way, and came here for help. I lived that way once.
- etc, etc.
So, being a squalorous person (not putting things away, throwing trash on the floor, not washing dishes, etc.) .... or being a severe hoarder (with piles of stuff making entry into the home unsafe) ... would be a reason that the resident of the home would be too embarrassed to call for repairs when needed. And eventually the home becomes unlivable.
The opposite is sometimes true -- Sometimes disrepair causes squalor, as follows: Perhaps the resident of the home is clean and neat, and NOT a clutterer, squalorer, or hoarder. But the resident of the home has a severe financial problem. - (1) There is a minor leak in the roof. She has absolutely no money to call for repairs. She feels forced to ignore the problem. She intends to fix it "next year" ... but she has no money then, either. Eventually the roof leak gets worse and the ceiling caves in. This is in a home of a normally clean, orderly person.
- (2) There is a minor electrical short in the wiring. She has no money to call for repairs. She feels forced to ignore the problem. The electrical problem gets worse and she cannot use her heat or washer/dryer. The laundry piles up. Blankets get used and reused, and never washed. This is in a home of a normally clean, orderly person.
- (3) The home is clean, spotless, organized, and beautiful.
Field mice (or woodland mice?) (whatever they're called) ... live outside nearby in the natural environment. This is normal -- and never a problem. The mice never approach her home.
However, one year, there is a very cold winter. Mice and ants find their way into her spotless home. She tries traps and poisons, but is concerned about her own pets swallowing poison, so she is extra careful. She cannot defeat the mice infestation or the ants infestation on her own. She is in dire financial straits. She cannot afford to hire an exterminator. The house is overrun with vermin. This is in the home of a normally clean, orderly person.
What happens when the above three things happen to a normal "cleanie" with a beautiful home? She cannot keep up with the problems, due to her lack of money and dire financial situation. The problems multiply and the house falls apart. Such an environment become very stressful and depressing -- especially to someone who is normally very clean and organized. She begins to fall deeper into depression. She no longer tries to wash dishes, vacuum carpets, or discard trash, because "why bother?". She gives up and become a full-fledged squalorer. Many years later, she might fix her financial issues, but having been so used to poverty and squalid living for such a long time, she forgets that she has the power to repair and clean up the home. She remains a squalorer. In her case, disrepair is what led her into becoming a squalorer.
So, to sum up -- it can happen either way: Embarrassment over squalor or hoarding can cause a financially comfortable person to avoid paying for necessary repairs of the home. Squalor causes disrepair. Lack of finances can cause a normally clean person to not get necessary repairs done, and then the home falls in to squalor. Disrepair causes squalor. (However, one might argue that "financial squalor" is the root cause here.)
A third scenario: A hoarder who is neat and clean, but continues to hoard many items until the house becomes overly full of stuff ... The hoarder might at first start out being clean and neat, and is a hoarder but not a squalorer. But ... it becomes more difficult to clean around the piles. At first, she does keep up with dishwashing and laundry-washing and carpet-vacuuming. But, eventually there is a small repair problem. She cannot stand on the ladder to fix the problem. She cannot reach behind to get at the problem. Why? She cannot do minor repairs that "normal" people might do, because the HOARD is blocking access to the repair points. Because she cannot fix these minor problems, the problems mushroom. The house falls into dangerous disrepair -- with sanitation and vermin problems and lack of functional utilities. It becomes more and more difficult to clean due to these disrepair problems as well as the hoards of stuff. The person is now a squalorer, as well as a hoarder. ----------
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Post by 60isolderthanithot on Feb 14, 2009 19:00:51 GMT -5
I found the film very moving. It seemed real without being maudlin or patronizing. It tired to let people talk about their situation personally. I especially felt engaged when that guy was talking about losing his mother. You could see there was a connection and a loss that had really flattened him.
Is this treatable? I'm serious, is there any way to speed up a repair on whatever this situation is?
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Post by creativechaos on Feb 16, 2009 0:39:00 GMT -5
yes, 60is, often hoarding gets much much worse after some tragedy or emotional trauma. and from middle age on it seems to get worse, but that may be due to loss of parents and inheriting their stuff on top of one's own. children leaving the nest can also bring up feelings of alienation and lostness.
on that same vimeo site with the documentary "possessed" is another film called "the collector". i absolutely loved that man. and yes, he is a hoarder and probably mentally ill, but lovely and his reasoning to keep things is admirable and makes perfect sense, yet is an example of how it works in the minds of some hoarders. often there is intention to have things that other people can come take or use, but there is an inability to see that maybe these things are broken and useless, etc.
hoarding is treatable but the treatment does not work unless the hoarder knows and admits to having a problem. then it's mostly cognitive therapy stuff, unless there is an underlying psychological or physiological problem where drugs can help with the organization and decision making processes. successful therapists go to the person's home and work with the hoarder there. they never throw the person's things out, rather encourage the people to feel the anxiety of discarding and survive it, and to take baby steps, as we encourage people to do here. the hoarder commits to not acquiring, and even doing 'practice' acquiring sessions by looking, but then not buying or taking it home (if free) even if they "want" it. the thought is that gradually the hoarder can re-train their impulse control.
messyang; i read back to your first response, and found nothing at all offensive in it. you were voicing some frustrations and i could really relate to your feelings of wishing to have some way to explain why things build up, whether it's dust bunnies or some collection of things. for some, high level one is intolerable. the bottom is the bottom for all of us; we're all the same in that and in those feelings, no matter what the level of squalor or hoarding.
misc, i think your summation of the differences between the 3 things: hoarding, squalor, and both together -- is pretty accurate and succinct. for most of us, the edges may overlap, depending on a lot of variables such as outer circumstances and body/brain chemistry, nutrition, whether or not there is a.d.d or learning difficulties, etc.
lioness, thanks so much for posting all the links and especially the ones on saxena, frost, and steketee. thanks to the people who want to know more about all of this.
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Post by creativechaos on Dec 29, 2009 0:13:24 GMT -5
bumping this. important discussion and hope it can continue.
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Post by creativechaos on Dec 29, 2009 0:15:03 GMT -5
haven't read this discussion in awhile. good to read it again. there is some info that i missed on first read. i love reading everyone's thoughts and experience.
there is new research that considers hoarding an anxiety disorder. it still seems to be a part of ocd.
there are some new books coming out on hoarding. one is for families of hoarders and their loved ones, called "digging out". due out in january 2010. the other book called "stuff" is not due out til april 2010. frost and steketee are two of the authors. saxena may also be in on this one.
to my knowledge, no one has written a good book on squalor or squaloring. i would love to see someone do it. if someone knows or a good, informative, yet compassionate, book on this, please post title or link to it here.
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Post by lettinggo on Dec 29, 2009 2:03:17 GMT -5
I think, for me, getting too bogged down in the need to specifically *name* my situation was part of what kept me trapped in it.
There are all sorts of hoarders -- people who have to pick up what is basically someone else's trash because "maybe I can fix this and sell it", but they never do, to people who can't throw out newspapers, to people who collect animals obsessively, but then can't possibly care for them, to ... to .. to ...
Not all hoarders have OCD -- I don't.
But no matter what, if you can't ever throw anything out, eventually it becomes squalor. Newspaper breaks down; even neat piles of *things* become to heavy to move, so cleaning behind or around them is impossible, etc.
I used to say "I just didn't get the cleaning gene", or "why are women judged so if they don't have great housekeeping skills?", but eventually I had to stop babying myself, or not looking at myself, or cutting myself so much slack. I had to SEE that I lived in squalor, before I could do anything about it. I had to stop justifying and using euphemisms, and being defensive.
And just start FIXING it.
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