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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Mar 30, 2010 11:12:02 GMT -5
Wow, thanks, Misc. I admire yours and LostInJunk's insight, candor, and willingness to talk.
I couldn't have handled it as well as the two of you have.
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Post by eagle on Mar 30, 2010 12:19:04 GMT -5
Thank you for your input, everyone who has answered so far.
To address a couple of questions that arose?
Why does something need to be done based on a one-time event? Why is intervention necessary?
Because the admins were contacted by members (not one member, but a few members) who were very upset by what happened. Some of those members said it was NOT the first time this has happened.
One member was conscientious enough to include a copy of the chat history as it appeared on said member's screen. This is the best way to show the admins exactly what was said that is so objectionable, and since we don't maintain a back-up of chat logs, the only way to verify these kind of reports.
Because more than one chatter reported that it was not the first time and because we have actual evidence of what happened, we are obligated to the community to act on this. We can choose to ignore it, but if we do, how are we serving the community? We are not here to to serve only the vocal minority, but all members. Therefore, I have brought it to you with a request for input.
My hope is that with input from the community, we can come to some kind of consensus on how to handle these kinds of situations and how to make the majority of members feel comfortable to participate in chat.
N.B. I want to thank MiSC for coming forward and posting. I know I am not the only one who appreciates your candor in this situation. I do want to clarify, however, that the members who said this was not the first time this has happened did not specifiy that you were (or were not) involved in the other incidents to which they referred. I just wanted you to know that.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 30, 2010 12:29:55 GMT -5
- Regarding the recent incident (from 36 hours ago) with LNJ and MiSC ... I was not present during that incident. (I was logged into chat, but not at my computer.) I heard some accounts but I really don't know what occurred. However, there is apologizing posted from those involved (LNJ, MiSC, etc) on another thread. - That thread indicates that LNJ has NOT left the community.
- That thread indicates that MiSC has apologized for her intentionally offensive comments.
They have posted apologies and reconciliation. I cannot rightly form an opinion, as I wasn't there. But you can read what the participants said on the other thread. The other thread is here: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=9766
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 30, 2010 12:32:53 GMT -5
- This is not the first time something like this has happened we are told.
We have asked in the past that all members treat each other with kindness and respect. I was present at one other incident. (NOTE: MiSC was not involved in the following incident). (NOTE: no foul language was used in the following incident). I won't go into details with the topic or participants. Instead, I will state only that the topic was vaguely related to politics on the state/city/town/village/neighborhood level. (That wasn't the specific topic. Just something vaguely along those lines). The conversation devolved into ranting, and intentionally snide/bating comments. It became a heated shouting match. I reported the above incident to the moderators WHILE it was happening. (I sent the mods a PM). I hoped the mods would get my message and come to chat and intervene. The mods were not online at that exact moment, so they didn't see my PM. In the chatroom, the confrontation continued. I was asking for help with one of my desqualoring tasks. The arguers ignored me. The arguers continued dominating the chat. Another member tried to insert humor into the conversation, but that didn't work. I began telling the arguers to STOP, but they ignored me. The entire thing lasted longer than 30 minutes, perhaps an hour. It was horrible. Eventually the arguers calmed down, but not due to my efforts. I think they stopped because they were done. But, sadly, others had felt uncomfortable, and left the chatroom for the rest of the day. After it was over, I felt awful. It took me several hours to regain my equilibrium. I could have put the arguers on "ignore" status, but I was concerned about others in the room, who might not have understood how to do the "ignore" feature, or who may have felt intimidated. So I chose to stay "aware" of what everyone was saying. I later realized it wasn't my problem ... and that I should have put the arguers on "ignore", in order to save my own serenity. The mods didn't get my message until later -- after it was all over. [NOTE: Moderators are busy like everyone else, and they have their own lives, and cannot be everywhere at once. So I totally understand that they didn't see my message until later!] Edit to CLARIFY again ... MiSC was not part of the incident I just described.
As a result of the incident I just described, the mods posted the following thread about kindness in chat (on Byways): Kindness toward each othertakeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=other&thread=9040A simple reminder to be kind to each other.
Please remember this, especially in chat, where your words can instantaneously hurt someone and you cannot edit or remove them from the screen.
Ongoing arguments in chat make others uncomfortable and are not acceptable.
If you do not like what others are saying, and they do not respond to your request to cease and desist, you can put them on IGNORE, and their comments will no longer be visible to you.
Please do not make chat uncomfortable to other members by participating in ongoing arguments. -
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Mar 30, 2010 12:52:40 GMT -5
Some of those members said it was NOT the first time this has happened. Because more than one chatter reported that it was not the first time and because we have actual evidence of what happened, we are obligated to the community to act on this. N.B. I want to thank MiSC for coming forward and posting. I know I am not the only one who appreciates your candor in this situation. I do want to clarify, however, that the members who said this was not the first time this has happened did not specifiy that you were (or were not) involved in the other incidents to which they referred. I just wanted you to know that. All I can tell you is that that other event (events?) didn't include me. I think I've made it clear that I'm an honest person, even if I sometimes can't/won't control my temper. Do what's right, but no matter what you choose to do about event Sunday night, please don't imply that I'm dishonest.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 30, 2010 12:57:50 GMT -5
- I would ask each of you to think about something ... How would YOU feel if you were a chatter with a past history of abuse? Would you want to be in a chatroom with people shouting insults? Ummmm no. How would YOU feel if you were a chatter who is totally stressed by your own squalor, and perhaps deadlines? Would you want to be in a chatroom with people adding MORE stress with their yelling? Ummmm no. YES ... we can rant/vent in chat. Yes it's allowed and healthy. But prolonged anger makes everyone feel sad. I think it's sometimes healthy to vent about one's homelife or job. Acceptable: We all need to blow off steam ... and sometimes come to chat to say "Spouse is annoying, children are crying, landlord is pressuring, and back is aching, boss is bullying, and I can't take it anymore!" This is natural, understandable, and happens in chat occasionally, and we all feel fine about it. Life is stressful and we need to vent a bit of stress, so that we can get down to the business of desqualoring. But ... NOT okay to rant about politics, religion, or other members. -
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Post by serenitynow on Mar 30, 2010 13:04:10 GMT -5
MiSC, I think you've been very forthright in owning up to this incident (I wasn't there). I would not call you dishonest. I hope things can be smoothed over. It seems like they're well on there way. Take Care, serenitynow
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Mar 30, 2010 13:32:12 GMT -5
- Regarding policies:I'm not a mod here. As a sister citizen of these forums, I would like to ask that EVERYONE read the chat policy in the community information section of the forums. If you click on "HOME" in row of icons at top of screen, you'll get to main menu of all the forums here. At top, you'll see Community Information section. Inside there, is a thread called "Chat". Have you read it?takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=community&action=display&thread=4031Here is an excerpt from the "Chat" thread posted by the admins: Quote from admin:I would like to ask that we all contemplate that. Suggest that any policy changes be added to that thread. (for example: if mods institute policy to warn people for violations). Regarding the ENTRYWAY to chat. (the forum page that appears as chat is opening.) takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=chatCurrently that "chat gateway" page has, at the bottom, below the chatbox: a greeting to newcomers, a note that people might be challenging, a suggestion to ignore people who upset you, and a reminder to log off when done. But I would really like people to see THIS at the entryway: I think that paragraph should be viewable whenever entering chat.-
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Post by mellowyellow on Mar 30, 2010 16:40:08 GMT -5
How do I feel chat should be? What principles should we uphold?
I have thought of so many ways to express it, like not swearing at or around others, taking a second to "think" before typing, and remembering how, once the reply button is pressed, there is no going back.... but really, aren't these all "no duh's", as I like to say?
I've wondered how it would work if we did the "teacher response for more serious issues": "one verbal warning, then a written warning, then some time away from the activity (time away from chat), and finally perhaps being asked not to participate in the activity/group (not enter chat anymore and only use the boards/threads)"... All are things I've considered...
I think that the poem by Max Ehrmann is still my best gauge for how we should be, and how we should strive to treat others here in chat, and in the world around us.
Desiderata or
I struggle to uphold these ideas and values every day. I fight against my mean and catty and impatient soul. And I fail... and fail... and fail. And fall, and try not to get up, and try to give up and then......find someone who helps me, whispers some encouragement, says something that strikes me in "just the right way... at just the right time"... and I try again.
I think.. I hope this is what we need to do. To strive and strive again, and to work in small ways, not only creating our own fresh start, but doing small kindnesses that carry others on their journey and new beginnings.
We need to start anew every single day, and in every single chat conversation. We need to remember that we are meeting new people and old acquaintances... We are talking to many people that we will never meet in real life... Yet we are sharing deeply personal and intimate parts of our lives. In many ways, we do this because we are unable to share them with the people around us, or the people we live with.
Often I hear things that make me question, doubt or disagree. Sometimes I get frustrated listening to conversations. But I am incredibly grateful for this forum of expression and support that we have. To me it is unique. Not special, but actually "one of a kind". "The only one like it"
I hope we can work as a team to ensure that we continue to have a healthy and fun and helpful Chat Group.
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Desiderata by Max Ehrmann
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Mar 30, 2010 16:56:06 GMT -5
I used to be able to recite the Desiderata by memory. Now it seems I need to reaquanit myself with it. I struggle to uphold these ideas and values every day. I fight against my mean and catty and impatient soul. And I fail... and fail... and fail. And fall, and try not to get up, and try to give up and then......find someone who helps me, whispers some encouragement, says something that strikes me in "just the right way... at just the right time"... and I try again. I wish THAT was on the initial message about the chat room. That sums everything up perfectly.
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Post by Butterfly on Mar 30, 2010 20:23:30 GMT -5
Misc, I can see where you might be especially sensitive right now (I seem to always be especially sensitive ), but I did not read Eagle's post as, in any way, challenging your honesty. In fact, it read to me as if she was going out of her way to state that NO ONE accused you of being involved in previous incidents and she wanted everyone to understand that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back to the topic:I think some of the posts have gotten away from Eagle's initial request regarding what type of behavior is unacceptable in chat and what should be done when that behavior occurs. My reading of her request is that while this topic might have been created because of a recent occurrence, it is not about that occurrence. I can't chat because I have slow dial-up internet. But, I like MellowYellow's advice: ...I've wondered how it would work if we did the "teacher response for more serious issues": "one verbal warning, then a written warning, then some time away from the activity (time away from chat), and finally perhaps being asked not to participate in the activity/group (not enter chat anymore and only use the boards/threads)"... All are things I've considered... I think that intentionally attacking someone should not be allowed under any circumstances. I feel that swearing at or calling someone names is abusive and should definitely fall into whatever guidelines are adopted. I don't believe anyone, no matter their own personal situation, should be allowed to intentionally abuse someone else. I think the first time it happens then the attacker should be given a warning by the mods. The second time it happens, the attacker should be given another warning and, perhaps, a time-out kind of period where the attacker should stay away from chat for a small period of time, say a week. If it happens a third time, within a set period of time, then a longer time-out (say a month?) would be enforced. Any further occurrences, within a set period of time, might result in a far longer ban from chat (say a year?). Depending on the severity of the abuse, the second warning might/should be eliminated. But, since feelings are subjective, I might perceive something as being intentionally attacking and another person might see the same thing as benign. So, I think it is important that the mods be presented with the screen text so that any rules/penalties can be fairly enforced. This way someone who may not be as popular could not be ganged up on. I'm not suggesting that someone would intentionally gang up on someone else, just that we are all more inclined to give those we like the benefit of a doubt whereas we might not be as unconsciously generous with someone we dislike. I also think it's important to distinguish between abusing someone and offending them. If I use a curse word in a post that was not directed at someone, then I might offend you. But if I deliberately curse you out then that is a type of verbal abuse. IMO, an abusive post is a far more serious matter, and should be treated more severely, than an offensive post. As someone else already pointed out, some folks do not really want advice, they want validation or, at times, even enabling. (At times, we probably all fall into this category.) And it's okay that they don't want advice, although it might be less confusing if they were a little clearer. However, I do not think giving honest advice, as long as it's done politely, is ever abusive even in this circumstance. Finally, since this is an emotional issue for those who were involved in chat, I want to state again that I'm speaking in generalities and am not directing my, below the line, comments regarding possible guidelines to any particular situation or to any person other than Eagle who asked for our opinions. ETA: MellowYellow, I really loved the poem and your lines about trying and failing and trying again. Thanks for the inspiration.
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Post by eagle on Mar 30, 2010 21:13:36 GMT -5
Thank you all, for your continued feedback. The mods welcome your comments here, or via PM if you are more comfortable with that mode of communication in this issue.
We do appreciate your thoughtful consideration and ideas.
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Post by still on Mar 31, 2010 0:07:15 GMT -5
I use chat occasionally. I do it in spurts. I have left when other people were fighting and I have left when the conversations got sexually crude. Since I don't rely on chat heavily, this wasn't a big loss - just my way of having the freedom to do what is best for me. Having said that, with all due respect to DJ and Moggyfan - both of whom I think are wonderful - I need the sweetness and light and safety BECAUSE everywhere else is so rough. To use an analogy, you don't 'desenstitize' a combat vet with PTSD by slamming doors behind him every time he isn't looking, etc. You would put him on the psych ward in a minute. And we put sick people in bed and take care of them because if we don't they often die - look at the flu epidemics of the past when there wasn't good care available. So, for those of us who have been physically and verbally brutalized - some of us over years and years, this board is a place of hope and healing because it isn't as rough as the rest of the world. I owe the atmosphere on this board more that I could ever pay for, if it had a price tag. As far as enforcement of chat rules, I like what Disorganized Dragon shared about how the other board handles things. This would give the mods the tools they need just in case, though they may never have to be used. Ok. That's my 2 cents.
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Post by moggyfan on Mar 31, 2010 0:24:07 GMT -5
Still wrote: "So, for those of us who have been physically and verbally brutalized - some of us over years and years, this board is a place of hope and healing because it isn't as rough as the rest of the world."
This is a board whose main purpose is desqualoring our homes (and finances, etc.) I am all for good manners and concern for others, but frankly I don't think people should have to worry about walking on eggshells for fear that they might possibly upset or offend someone.
That said, I'm a firm believer in kindness. I also believe there's a point at which being "nice" is not kind at all. It is just enabling bad behavior.
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Post by mrsmess on Mar 31, 2010 2:24:23 GMT -5
Well I am pretty new here, but I must say that I find the challenges very helpful in chat. If I don't find the subject of conversation to be to my taste then I will go and tidy or clean, go and fix myself a snack, or just walk away for a while. I think that in general in chat situations, from my experiences in other chat rooms, it is wise to avoid topics that have potential to be offensive to others, as there may be something that 2 or 3 people are discussing animatedly that is distasteful to others and would be better off being discussed privately. Also comments on controversial issues should be avoided, in case of upsetting a chatee (is that a word? ) whose opinion differs...anyway just my thoughts on the matter not sure if others agree or not.
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