MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Apr 29, 2010 13:36:04 GMT -5
My most obvious: cleaning is time-consiming. By not cleaning, I save my time and energy for more desirable pursuits, such as searching for my keys, writing checks for late fees, etc. Ditto. I think my big pro is that I can shut everyone besides my immediate family out. If I do that, there's very little chance I can say something that embarasses me or them. I can live pretty much like a hermit, even though my family goes out and does things together. No one has to see me and my fat. And since my family is made up of people whom I love with all my heart and who love me too, no one will hurt me if I stay in here. As long as I have this wall of crap between me and the rest of the world, I'm fine. The idea of having people in here, even if it were pristine, is terrifying to me.
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Post by Chris on Apr 29, 2010 14:49:21 GMT -5
I'm beginning to feel stronger about having boundaries without the excess clutter. At first it was terrifying. Chris, this is really interesting--can you say more of what you mean by boundaries without the clutter? Diane Hi Diane -- I will try to explain - I hope it makes sense. What I have noticed is that in the past I NEEDED the clutter and non-functioning areas (for example table piled up unuable) in order to have sort of an "excuse" that I would not be having the family get together (expected of me). But I didn't really want my house that cluttered. And I surely didn't want to have the parties. (I tried it for years hated it and felt used.) I can handle small get togethers but not big holiday bashes here -- I just am not cut out for it. Gradually I learned to be strong and have personal boundaries -- tell the truth "no I'm not willing to have the whole family for thanksgiving" -- and little by little I was able to keep the house cleaner and still say no to the BIG parties. I'm not sure if this makes sense but I feel that in my heart I used clutter to keep people away -- especially big groups. That's not the only reason I had the mess and clutter -- it also had/has to do with over acquiring and having difficulties discarding and difficulties organizing too. But a big part for me was filling up the dining room and having perpetual disorder and chaos in there and being "unable" to have the parties here. Even my husband recently admitted that he thinks now that one reason he had such a mess in the "spare" bedroom was because his nephews have asked to live here and he/we are not willing to allow that but having the room disabled was like an excuse. And that's also a boundary issue because we need to be willing to just say -- "hey there are some ways we could help you but living here is not one of them" or something. Because we love them but we feel strongly about not having live-ins (we've made the exception of his mom). Another thing I've noticed recently (all of this is as we dig out and get cleaner and cleaner and more organized in our home and in our financial life) is that I now think that part of our credit card debt was about being "broke" so we didn't feel obligated to help -- or enable or whatever -- because there are several family members who earn more than us but almost lost their home and have been in all sorts of really bad financial situations of their own making - where we were the only ones they thought to turn to. In the past my husband did give away a lot of money (and before me he co-signed) but he stopped -- and somewhere in there he and I had created havoc in our money. That made it easy when sis asked for a co-sign and when someone else asked for money because we honestly didn't have it -- but at the same time we did not wish to co-sign nor bail out irresponsibility. I know it might seem like oversimplyfing but I can truly see that creating personal boundaries and being willing to be strong and only do or no do what we wanted to and could - has helped clear clutter in our home and finances. In the past I can even remembering being glad I didn't have the money in more than one situation where I knew I wouldn't want to help the person even if I did have the money because I could see the pattern they had of not being responsible. But that seems so crazy now. Even Oprah is under no obligation to GIVE her money to everyone who asks. (and we are not rich by any means) And if I did still have a dining table (hee hee I sold it) I am under no obligation to have the whole family here for Thanksgiving since it is so NOT my desire. I feel more free now. I don't think I am alone in this totally. I just have been crawling out from under a passive agressive -- boundary less life where I was a door mat. And I'm so glad to be shedding that skin.
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Post by canna on Apr 29, 2010 15:12:24 GMT -5
Chris you wrote:
""But I didn't really want my house that cluttered. And I surely didn't want to have the parties. (I tried it for years hated it and felt used.) I can handle small get togethers but not big holiday bashes here -- I just am not cut out for it. I am under no obligation to have the whole family here for Thanksgiving since it is so NOT my desire. I feel more free now. ""
Wow. That Is exactly the way I have felt for years! I thought there was something wrong, because I do not want to have any big party holiday family get togethers! I am just NOT cut out for it...either!! I don't like to cook. I can't stand planning big dinners, menues, the food, etc. Always bothers me the THAT I SHOULD WANT TO DO THIS. AND I SHOULD FEEL GUILTY NOT HAVING CROWD PARTIES!! Well, it does not interest me to think about food for a crowd, what should I make, etc. Nope. I cook very simply and never have been fussy or gourmet about eating/cooking at all!!! Love my microwave, make big amounts, freeze and then micro meals. I don't have a lot of different exotic spices, veggies, etc. Only try new recipies if they are s i m p l e and q u i c k, thank you...
If my sisters or other family members want to have the parties, OK with me, I'll bring a dessert and help clean up. I have never cooked a full big Thanksgiving dinner either. Turkey? never. And they know it. I know many here enjoy and anticipate cooking big dinners for holidays, etc.
Just not me...
Ha
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Post by dtesposito on Apr 29, 2010 16:35:47 GMT -5
Chris, you explained that very well. The interesting thing about this is that it sounds like you didn't really realize that you were doing it at the time, it wasn't an excuse to your family, it was an excuse to yourself, because you didn't know how to say no otherwise.
I still have a question about it though--when you declined having guests over, did you use the house as the excuse you gave your family (in other words, did your family know your house was cluttered and that there was no room to have a party) or did you use another excuse? It seems like people who have clutter don't usually want others to see what their place looks like, so they can't use the clutter as the reason, they still have to come up with an excuse that isn't real ("we can't have the party here because my husband is sick right now", rather than the presumed truth "there is so much stuff in my house that there is no room to prepare food or for guests to sit down" OR, the REAL truth, which is "I just don't enjoy having parties here.") So if it's necessary to make up an excuse, why not just make up the excuse instead of building up the clutter so that you HAVE to make up an excuse? Does it provide the safety backup, so that if you are tempted to cave in and say yes, you know you absolutely can't because you can't let anyone in your house?
For example--MiSC--you said that even if your house was pristine you wouldn't want people to come over--do you feel that when your house is cluttered you're able to tell people not to come over, but if it wasn't cluttered you wouldn't be able to tell them not to come?
I know there might not be a clear answer to this, I just find the mind fascinating, and am always trying to figure out how it works--for myself as well as for other people. There are layers of subconscious thought and sometimes digging down into them is really helpful.
Diane
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Post by dtesposito on Apr 29, 2010 16:41:43 GMT -5
Geranium, I think there are many and varied reasons for cluttering/hoarding--even though many of the feelings we have are the same, they come from our different backgrounds and manifest themselves in different ways. I myself don't identify with the idea that I need the clutter to keep people away--I've always been a somewhat antisocial person, and have had no problem telling people if I don't want them around! I have friends and enjoy their company, but they are a few really good friends that I have a lot in common with--I'm not someone who needs to constantly be around people--in fact I need a lot of "alone" time in order to feel good. I'm fine with that, so I don't feel that the clutter stems from that characteristic. But the tendencies are there, so they must come from something else. We are all complex individuals, which is why a "one-size fits all" approach to psychological issues does not work! Diane
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diera
New Member
Joined: November 2009
Posts: 9
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Post by diera on Apr 29, 2010 17:51:46 GMT -5
Yes, I definitely think it varies. I'm not cluttering to keep people away; I love having people over when the house is in a condition to do it. I'm also not cluttering to keep out burglars and protect myself or my things. I think what robbers most want to steal is easily fenced stuff like big-screen TVs and the TV is the one thing you *can* find in our house!
Mostly, for me the 'pro' is an illusion of saving time or trouble. If I have to think where I should be putting something or whether I need it or should be getting rid of it, that's a moment of stress or confusion or bother, and I avoid it by just putting it down to 'think about later'. Keeping things is the path of least resistance after all. The benefit is having this moment be easier, at the expense of future moments which will be harder because I didn't make the decision now.
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Post by dtesposito on Apr 29, 2010 18:11:00 GMT -5
The benefit is having this moment be easier, at the expense of future moments which will be harder because I didn't make the decision now. Very well said! Isn't that the definition of all procrastination? Diane
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Post by _Linda_ on Apr 29, 2010 18:39:06 GMT -5
I think its ironic that for a lot of us, the pro is to keep people away. Although I love my family dearly, I would rather spend the time at their houses so that I can leave when I want. Yes, I am more than a bit anti social. While I did have the twisted way of thinking that if someone broke in, they would hurt themselves before getting anything. But then I remembered, I don't have much worth taking. As Diane mentioned, I am interested in how the mind works. It amazes me how different, but how alike we all are. Howardsgirlfriend, how did you know that searching for my keys and paying late fees were some of my favorite hobbies?? Chris, I know exactly what you mean. Although my family is very important to me, so is my ability to have my own space and the freedom to do what I want, not what others expect.
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Post by Chris on Apr 29, 2010 19:15:15 GMT -5
Diane -- I'm pretty sure that at the time I used other excuses like "husband has to work" etc. etc. But I know NOW that I was "stuck" with cleaning up partly because I so HATED the role that was cast on me to take over the BIG family meals. The thing is looking back I see just how they (maybe not intentionally but nonetheless) started on me the year we moved back here to DHs home -- showing me how it was done and urging us to buy the freezer/roaster/Sam's card etc. And, at the time, I could let those family members in -- they came in -- whether I liked it or not (my MIL had a key and at one point my SIL too but not anymore) but I always had project messes all clogging up the dining area (which by the way is gone forever now because I turned the whole space into MY OFFICE . Looking back, I used my working (at the time I worked full time), my son, the doubled up furniture (MIL left her stuff here in Dhs house) and all kinds of excuses to explain the extreme disorder and chaos. In our house in another state prior to coming here 19 years ago we just didn't have the serious problem -- we had collections and a whole lot of stuff but we were independent and off on our own in another state the first 5 years of our marriage - and clutter/hoarding wasn't happening to the scale it did later on. Things got bad quick here. Long strange story . Canna -- I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that feels that way about big crowd parties.
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Apr 30, 2010 2:14:43 GMT -5
Another pro for me: I don't have to address our social awkwardness and isolation. Since friends can't come over, I don't have to try to make any, and consider the possibility that we're so defective that we can't.
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Post by Morningstar on Apr 30, 2010 5:22:45 GMT -5
It's the reason my life is in the state it's in, and the excuse to not do anything about it. Also functions as a barricade to keep people out - from my home, and looking into me. A safe hidey hole, nothing can touch or harm me here.
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Post by _Linda_ on Apr 30, 2010 6:04:33 GMT -5
It seems that keeping people out is a common theme, even for me. I wonder for myself if this doesn't just add to my depression. But then again, I have always been a bit anti-social too.
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Post by jkai3 on Apr 30, 2010 7:36:27 GMT -5
Thought I would inject a little humor... Pros: 1) Throw glitter on cobwebs in corners & ceilings for Christmas, instant decorations! 2) Keep vacuum always plug in & in the only clear floor space neat front door, dust-cloths laying on table, trash-bags flung to hide "stuff". That way when unexpected people show up, as they peek around you at the door they will know your "in the middle of a Hugh cleaning", & leave! 3) Try to keep plenty of boxes around to throw stuff in, that way people think your: A) Having a yard sale soon. I have used this one! B) Donating items to charity. C) Are helping a dear friend out by letting her place her "stuff" w/you til they find a new place to live. 4) Start naming the unwanted house guests, (mice, ants, etc.) That way you'll have some dependents to claim on taxes! 5) Instead of a security system sign, you can proudly post, "Killer Dust Bunnies! Beware!". Just thought it was kinda funny, and yes Dear Ones, I have done, or a least given some serious thought to doing it at one time or another! Jkai3
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Apr 30, 2010 8:46:12 GMT -5
Thought I would inject a little humor... Pros: 1) Throw glitter on cobwebs in corners & ceilings for Christmas, instant decorations!
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Post by _Linda_ on Apr 30, 2010 17:48:11 GMT -5
I wish I would have thought of decorating the cobwebs! You are so funny Jkai. Thanks for the laughs.
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