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Post by yearning4order on Jun 26, 2010 11:41:22 GMT -5
Fluff piece and not much substance.
"Clutter-phobia may also be programmed into certain people’s genes, since extreme cleanliness likely once conferred a survival advantage by warding off germs, disease and death. "
I don't buy it. I don't think 700 years ago people had the amount of possessions or the time to worry about cleaning the way we do now. In some places people were living with their animals in the same house as with people. When people were pouring chambers pots out into the street near the same stream where they got their water, a clean house didn't keep anyone from dying of cholera.
People utilized the best natural food preservation methods they could (natural fermentation like sauerkraut; specialty meat preparation like sausages; salting or grease packing of meat; drying of fruit; cheese making; among tribal cultures, smoking and drying of meats of mixing with grease and fruits to make pemmican; on and on) and some of these created bacteria which actually helped the body, much like yogurt. They also spiced the heck out of things to cover the flavors of "off" meat and such. But even so, if your grains got damp and you consumed grain mold, it was kind of a bad deal, especially if you developed hallucinations and began accusing others of witch craft.
This is the kind of thing I really wish people would not put in print because it's an assumption, not a working thesis that anyone has researched. If we follow the evolutionary survival of the fittest arguement to it's logical conclusion, then messies would have become a biological rarity, as cleanies would have outsurvived us.
But that doesn't seem to be the case, now, does it?
In fact, we know that some amount of dirt and germs actually help people. Proximity to animals can help build a childs immune system. While we shouldn't be feeding kids a spoonful of dirt each day, quite frankly it's largely ok for them to eat dirt, unless they are in a cow pasture, chicken run, etc. But your basic digging in the backyard, no animal has pooped here, 3 year old thinking, "Hey I wonder what that dirt tastes like"? Largely ok.
I'm not saying being slobby is better mind you. But not sure the article has anything worthwhile to bring to the conversation.
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Post by annieblue on Jun 26, 2010 11:52:09 GMT -5
I agree with Mimi & Eagle on the fluff aspect. This guy, below, especially irks me. Seems he's up in arms against even basic orderliness. It's possible his book goes into deeper 'order disorders', but his dialogue in the article really doesn't: David H. Freedman, co-author of the book, “A Perfect Mess: The Hidden Benefits of Disorder,” argues that extreme neatness does have some drawbacks.
One, he says, is the loss of creativity. “If you make your environment very neat, you’re making everything predictable,” he says. “You will lock out bad things — you’re less likely to be late, things are less likely to spill or break — but you’re also locking out luck.” That messy desk or kitchen is more conducive to making the random connection that could lead to a scientific breakthrough or a new recipe.Not so for everyone, Mr. Freedman. For me, I simply can not function creatively in a messy home. Yes, 'creatives' need a space to spread it all out there & go to it creatively, but if the rest of my home is in chaos I feel it is loud, noisy, & crowding in on me when I want to work creatively, & the last thing I feel like doing is spreading out & producing more chaos. During my years of living in 'house overwhelm' my creativity disappeared completely. Another, surprisingly, is time. True, messy people waste time rummaging for their keys. But, Freedman says, neat people spend all their time constantly putting things away throughout the day, while those who let things pile up and tackle them in one chunk save precious minutes in the long run.Yet most of us here have learned how much time we SAVE by putting things away as we go. I was neat for a very long time & I certainly didn't spend all my time constantly putting things away throughout the day. He makes it sound like that's all a person does in a day if they are neat, gyah.
“I’ve had hundreds of people tell me about neat freak habits, and not a single one has denied suspecting there is something a little wrong with them,” Freedman says. “People who are neat are helpless to be otherwise — they’re prisoners of it.”Every single person out of the hundreds who have talked with him about neat freak habits has suspected there is something a little wrong with them, & neat people are helpless prisoners of their neatness. This is so laughable. I assume he was seeking out people to talk with whom acknowledge their neatness has caused problems to begin with, because the majority of the neat people I know are quite happy with the benefits & certainly aren't prisoners! Even the clutter-phobes admit their strategy can backfire. “I have one regret,” Kersh says. “Getting rid of this awesome pair of brown elk skin cowgirl boots.”To those of us who have difficulty letting go of things for fear of making a mistake & later regretting it, one backfire can sometimes sink our psychological ship & bring our progress to a standstill. We sure as heck don't need to be hearing someone use one backfire as an argument against the benefits of being neat! If Perri Kersh, a professional organizer, only had one regret amongst all the stuff she's unloaded, that's what I'd call HUGE SUCCESS.
Needless to say, I'll not be buying “A Perfect Mess: The Hidden Benefits of Disorder.” I've lived both ways - exceptionally neat & in exceptional chaos. I liked neat much better. 
I agree, as Script says, that balance is the key in almost everything. Being too neat and clean is just as crippling as never throwing anything out.
Yes, balance is the magic word! As I said, I've done both extremes, therefore I've concluded a balance between the two would be the best way to live. However, I've driven myself crazy attempting to achieve it. At this point, I am thinking I would rather live with being an overboard neatie than with being constantly overwhelmed by chaos. I have had to give myself permission for it to be okay to be even 'sick' neat.Mrs. Mess - thank you for posting this! It got my mind turning today & my feet SPEEDING ME straight into Chat to work on my home! 
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Post by annieblue on Jun 26, 2010 11:56:05 GMT -5
Y4 - I was typing while you were posting, but have now read yours.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
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Post by eagle on Jun 26, 2010 12:02:26 GMT -5
Thank you, DJ. You are a treasure. It did occur to me that I had heard something to that effect about him, but your information is so much better than a vague recollection!
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Post by Rennie Ellen on Jun 27, 2010 15:40:49 GMT -5
Even with my home in perfect order, I STILL can't find my keys sometimes!  I don't blame that on clutter, but on old age! 
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sam
New Member
Joined: June 2010
Posts: 9
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Post by sam on Jun 30, 2010 11:06:56 GMT -5
I think the character trait thing was implicit in the article. In the article, Kersh says, “I don’t think I’ve moved into the pathological side,” she laughs. “I’m not an obsessive hand-washer.” To me that sounds like a beer-drinking alcoholic saying he/she doesn't have a problem because he/she doesn't drink hard liquor.
Because tidiness is socially acceptable, and because hoarding/messiness is definitely not, we are ostracized because what we do is obvious (even if we don't let people in), and the tidy are not; in fact, they are generally praised for the appearance of their homes. Besides, people can hide pathology in the clean. How do you tell the difference between a compulsive clean freak, and someone who cleans their home normally? Both are clean and orderly, there is no way to tell (unless you are present for the cleaning, watch & listening carefully to what they do/say, and so forth). So their "pathology" is missed and reinforced by praise for their success. While we are scorned in some way or other.
I have thought for some time now that neat freaks are as "out of sorts" as hoarders. I say out of sorts because there are a variety of reasons behind what motivates both. I believe we are the same (basically), only the our symptoms or the outward expression is different.
As such, hoarders are just as nice, thoughtful, caring, etc. as anyone else.
Most compulsive cleaners don't have the same shame issues as us, I think. They may become impatient with themselves, or frustrated, but there is generally no shame in a clean home...but they probably drive their family a bit crazy. Both syndromes hurt those we are close to, and understanding is only the beginning.
Sam
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Post by def6 on Jun 30, 2010 15:01:04 GMT -5
Yes, I have to say yes! Neetness is closer to Godlyness. The reason I say this is when our house is a mess it gets in the way sometimes of what we really need to be doing caring for our family , being a good neighbor , helping others, being a good employee and being a good spouse, being a good child of God .
Well, really I think we are all of these things but the messy just makes it a lot harder to manage.
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