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Post by mrsmess on Jun 24, 2010 21:08:09 GMT -5
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Blackswan
Banned
Joined: October 2008
Posts: 6,388
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Post by Blackswan on Jun 25, 2010 0:47:47 GMT -5
awesome article! thanks for sharing it with us!
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Post by Rory on Jun 25, 2010 5:38:08 GMT -5
Thank you it's very interesting.
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Post by Script on Jun 25, 2010 7:05:25 GMT -5
I read this article with great interest. My mother is a neat-freak, not pathological, but definitely stern about mess. She is one of the ones who will say, "my kitchen looks like a bomb hit it", when really, it is just the pots and pans from ONE cooking session.
Because both of my parents were perfectionists, rigid neat-niks, sternly regimented self-starters, there have been many troubling side-effects for my whole family. My brother suffers the worst. If he does ANYTHING [enter a road race, play a round of golf] and he doesn't reach his PLANNED goal, he will say, "total flame-out".
This week, he was in a 5 mile race; humidex: 37 degrees: hideous weather. He called me to say the race was a total-wash-out and he was bitterly disappointed. His time was 1 minute slower than planned; he finished in the top 10% overall; probably in the top 5% for his age group. AND HE THINKS THIS WAY because this is what he learned at home.
Thank you for the article: as I keep saying: successful HOME CARE along with every other aspect of life is a question of BALANCE. I really appreciated it.
xxoo
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Post by Rennie Ellen on Jun 25, 2010 7:20:44 GMT -5
Mrsmess,
Thanks for sharing the article!
I disagree that being neat and tidy is a character trait. That reinforces the belief that if your house is tidy and clean, you're a good person, and if it isn't, you're a bad person. My self-worth comes from God. It doesn't depend on the condition of my house.
Right now my house is in disarray because for the last three weeks I've been involved with Vacation Bible School. The first week I was ministering with a Christian Clown Troupe, dressing every day in clown regalia. They were from Oklahoma and stayed at a local church for the week. Since I was going to be ministering with the Troupe that week, I stayed at the church with them, stopping by my home at night to feed and water Angel. I had a great time and learned a lot about clown ministry.
The second and third weeks have been busy with two more Vacation Bible Schools the outreach ministry sponsored. I ministered as "Harmony Joy the Clown" at an apartment complex block party we sponsored this week, but the rest of the time I just helped with the kids and helped prepare lunch for the workers.
Today is the last day of VBS. Then, for the outreach ministry, the VBS season will be done until next year. I still haven't totally unpacked from my 1st week! There's laundry to do and things to put away. So the next week my aide and I will work on getting things back to normal. Which is cool -- I now HAVE a normal and it won't take forever to get there.
I just spent 3 weeks doing God's work and my home isn't organized the way I want it. Does this mean I've slacked on my spirituality because of the condition of my home? NO! NO! NO! So that's why I disagree with the notion that being neat is a character trait.
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Post by bluefrog on Jun 25, 2010 9:28:52 GMT -5
Excellent article--even though there are parts I disagree with. Being neat seems to me to be learned behavior, like being messy. Being compulsively neat is a mental problem, possibly genetic---much like hoarding. Scrubbing the tile grout in the bathroom countertop with a toothbrush when it's getting grubby is good housekeeping; scrubbing it with a toothbrush every night, even when it's sparkling white, is a problem. But I can't see neatness as a character trait: whatever condition my house is in, I am not my house.
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Post by gottaproblem on Jun 25, 2010 9:29:59 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing the article. I found it interesting.
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Post by dtesposito on Jun 25, 2010 9:33:30 GMT -5
Rennie, I think this depends on how you define "character trait"--you are defining it as a trait that is part of a person's "moral or ethical character", which is a value judgment that people make about a behavior, they believe acting a certain way is the right thing to do so they make it part of their "character." I myself would define "character trait" as an aspect of a person's personality, which has come from a combination of genetics, environment, experience, etc.
I agree, as Script says, that balance is the key in almost everything. Being too neat and clean is just as crippling as never throwing anything out.
Diane
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Post by Rennie Ellen on Jun 25, 2010 21:50:17 GMT -5
Dtesposito,Rennie, I think this depends on how you define "character trait"--you are defining it as a trait that is part of a person's "moral or ethical character", which is a value judgment that people make about a behavior, they believe acting a certain way is the right thing to do so they make it part of their "character." I myself would define "character trait" as an aspect of a person's personality, which has come from a combination of genetics, environment, experience, etc. I agree, as Script says, that balance is the key in almost everything. Being too neat and clean is just as crippling as never throwing anything out. I run into this line of thinking all the time when dealing with public housing inspectors. Some really feel if a resident's apartment is messy, the resident obviously has low self-esteem issues -- or they're depressed -- which seems to me that they ARE saying, "You are the condition of your apartment." It infuriates me to no end. Thank God I had an inspector who didn't think that way and gave me a break when I was physically ill.
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Post by Meme on Jun 26, 2010 0:25:44 GMT -5
I did not really ''get''' the article--it did not say a lot that helped me form an objective opinion -- reminded me of good house keeping magazines which have good titles on the cover but no content inside and God bless Rennie for putting so much time and effort into our future growing generation --- Meme who plans on having a neat and tidy house someday but who is right now doing God's will allowing her grandkids to have a home away from home--my house is a soft place for them to land
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Post by eagle on Jun 26, 2010 1:08:30 GMT -5
First, I seem to have missed the spot in the article where the author or her quotes listed neatness as a character trait. Although, I can certainly see how it can be termed a trait, because it is one.
Second, I did see in the article where it mentions that neatfreakiness has its drawbacks, including limiting creativity.
So I'm just not sure where the character trait discussion is coming from. If anyone can point me in that direction, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
The article was interesting, but personally I think it's a 'fluff piece' and the title is more than slightly misleading if you only notice the first line in the title, which many readers do. No where does it claim that neatness is Godliness. The part about compulsion is pretty clear, though.
The other thing I was surprised by was the guy who said the Dr. Seuss book, "The Cat in the Hat" had "an implicit message about not trashing the house." Where was I when I read that story to my kids? I don't remember that. Now I'm going to have to go read it again. Now if he had mentioned Silverstein's "Sarah Sylvia Cynthia Stout would not take the garbage out..."
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Post by mrsmess on Jun 26, 2010 3:21:30 GMT -5
No where does it claim that neatness is Godliness. Yes I don't think the article is claiming that at all, it is merely posing the question. " Closer to God?Still, conventional wisdom holds that neatness is the “morally superior” choice." "But while most of us tend to think well of someone who is tidy, assuming that they are more considerate than their peers, that’s not necessarily the case. Gosling, who dubs this misperception the “Mr. Rogers factor,” did research that found neat people are no more likely to be kind or sympathetic than their messier counterparts."
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Post by bluefrog on Jun 26, 2010 9:08:34 GMT -5
Eagle, I think I took the phrases "associating neatness with a quality required to be a good person" and "morally superior choice" and ran with them as character traits, somehow skipping the author's actual negative comments about both attitudes. I should have read more carefully.
I agree with you about it mostly being a fluff piece, and with completely missing the message about not trashing the house in "The Cat in the Hat." I remember it more as a message about gleefully disobeying your parents and not getting caught---but that may just indicate where my sympathies lie.
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Post by eagle on Jun 26, 2010 9:22:55 GMT -5
Thank you, both. I am glad I am not totally missing the boat. That's a good point, Bluefrog, about where your sympathies lie. I am sure that has a lot to do with how I see the messages in childrens books (and other things I read), too. But then again, I am sure that many books written were not written with an underlying message in mind; they were written because the writer enjoyed telling stories. I don't know if that can be said of Dr. Seuss, however.
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Post by DJ on Jun 26, 2010 10:59:31 GMT -5
for what it's worth... Dr Seuss intentionally wrote without a moral intended when he began each book... his position was that there's a moral inherent in every story and if you try to insert one into a tale children will spot it 'a mile off' he was originally an adult cartoonist who began children's stories as more of a bet/intellectual challenge because of an article about child literacy or the lack of it... his stories touch on many very grown up and advanced concepts from environmentalism, consumerism, and he even described himself as 'subversive as hell' but he let the moral of his stories stand as self evident rather than leading the reader down the path to them... he intentionally avoided doing so.
a large part of the reasons his books are such hits compared to others including the ones in the seuss line not written by giesel himself is that he brought a strict and very grown up approach to writing and child literacy to his work. he purposefully limited his word choices to only several hundred per story, was very studious in actually using words that children were assigned to know for reading/spelling in the day and frequently adhered to very strict anapestic tetrameter... his work is actually excellent for teaching even adults and highschoolers the concept of poetic meter because his is so clear & consistent ... the dedication with which he used it and just the awareness of it distinguishes him from other far less compelling rhyming children's authors....
i <3 seuss.
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