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Post by chakraverte on Jul 16, 2009 22:26:06 GMT -5
Email I got today while at work.
this is only a small slice of the whole thing, and there is a whole lotta back story, and usually he is so patient...but right now, this sucks.
We were supposed to go up to his ex's house to take care of his son. He's now up there. I'm not.
Anyway, this was the email.
Hi,
We need to schedule a time to discuss a few things. I can't do it today, and I don't want to do it in front of B.
In short:
1. I love you,
2. I am not breaking up with you,
3. I am, however, pissed off at you right now
a., I did not accuse you of "stealing my energy," - quite the opposite actually - my issue is that your energy is invading my energy, which is representative of an overall feeling of You invading My space, or You not respecting my boundaries - be it energetic or otherwise. Your response was that it was my fault that I was not keeping you out. My point was that, I shouldn't have to regulate my energy and your energy. In general, I feel that you do not self-regulate your boundaries, but instead define your boundary by pushing as far as you can, all the time - only forming a boundary when you meet resistance. It happens with the clutter, with the energy, with sleeping in the same bed. Its exhausting. Please respect my space by recognizing the limits of your own.
b., I pushed the stool out of the way because the only other option was to push you out of my way - we were both in a hurry to get out of the door by 8 am, and we were both in a very small kitchen, and I was there first, and I was doing something, and you took the water from me [there's more that I'm deleting]
4. In general, I feel like there is no space for me and I feel like I constantly have to defend my space from you - be it physical, mental, or emotional space.
5. I love you, and I would like to see you at some point this weekend, but not today, and probably not tomorrow.
6. I am seriously tired of being tested.
7. I love you. If you do come up, say, on Sunday, please bring my red spiral bound notebook from my bookshelf.
I hope your first day back at work goes well.
love,
R.
AND THE THING THAT DRIVES ME NUTS IS THAT I"M DOING SO MUCH BETTER! I'm at least containing the mess to MY room. I know that I have a problem. I've been in therapy, I'm taking meds, and we made sure to get a TWO BEDROOM APARTMENT, so I would have my space to work things out.
Its just disconcerting. He left today, he won't be back until Monday. I may stay at a friend's house that night just so I don't feel like I've been "waiting at home for him" -- which is stupid, because our apartment is ONE BLOCK from where I work.
This sucks.
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Post by Fivecat on Jul 16, 2009 22:34:12 GMT -5
Sounds to me like he is really in desperate need of some cave time and that's what he's asking for. Read Men are from Mars/Women from Venus. I found with my own husband cave time is vital. Fivecat
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Post by gifted on Jul 16, 2009 22:58:24 GMT -5
I would be frustrated, because he gave you this message, just before making himself scarce for several days.
But I suggest you plan a wonderful weekend for yourself. Watch chick flicks, spray the house with some foo-foo scent, change all the light bulbs to pink, or something. Maybe even spend time getting your things organized the way you would like them.
But the message that you posted sounds pretty straightforward, and so it sounds like the two of you can discuss this concretely.
And maybe he wrote you BECAUSE you are doing better, and might now be able to work on a mutually agreeable solution.
Perhaps the two of you can compromise, and stagger your morning schedules, if it creates too much mayhem for both of you to be getting ready together.
SG
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Post by disarray on Jul 16, 2009 23:08:01 GMT -5
His explanation about space and all that seems thought out. At least he's trying to make sense of your actions and of how it makes him feel and he's expressing that. He's letting you know how it makes him feel and that's healthy for him. It's good communication.
However, if it was me I'd be a little bit hurt by all that. (Of course I consider myself overly sensitive.) It just seems like he's asking for an awful lot of space. I'd start to wonder why do you need all this mental, emotional, and physical space? Don't you want to be around me? Why so many boundaries? Why can't we share space?
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kiz
New Member
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 86 
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Post by kiz on Jul 17, 2009 0:13:15 GMT -5
Some people do need more space, physcial and emotional, than others. I'm one of those people. The need to be alone, or to be away, does not necessarily mean someone loves you less or wants to be away from you. While I have not read the "Mars/Venus" book I did like the phrase "cave time".
I understand your hurt and frustration with the way it went down, though. I'd be upset by an absence and an email (at work, too!), rather than a face to face explanation before the event. The wording sounded frustrated and frustrating, too. Perhaps wait until the talk he wants and needs, when he has calmed down, hopefully it will clarify things.
I have no real advice nor am I any good at "cyber hugs" but I just wanted to say that someone wanting to be alone, or away, or wanting a little more space is not necessarily any sort of reflection on you. It may have nothing at all with you being better or worse... some people just need more "space" than others. People just have different needs that way... no different to early wakers/sleepers-in, or messies/cleanies trying to live together.
Either way, good luck with this all, and enjoy your weekend alone. Me-time can be very invigorating, use it
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Post by Peach on Jul 17, 2009 0:22:00 GMT -5
What I find strange is the emphasis on his/her space and boundaries from someone who repeatedly expresses love toward the other person. Of course, it is difficult for us to draw conclusions based on a few words and not knowing what lead up to his email. But, I have never thought in terms of separate his and her spaces in regard to my SO (my BF who is now DH). As for boundaries, there are none. I don't understand why there should be or can be between two people who truly love each other. The tone of your BF's words are those I would expect to hear between platonic roommates - not lovers. Sorry if this is blunt but that is how I see love: No separate spaces. No boundaries. Everything open and shared.
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Post by notsomessyshell on Jul 17, 2009 1:17:12 GMT -5
Peach I am glad that works for you. It is not my way however. I need my space. I need my time. Separate from him. And vice versa. It does not mean I love him less, but sometimes I just need to be alone. To go to the bookstore and browse, or go sit and have a coffee and watch the people. My side of the bed is just that MINE. He has his nightstand and I have mine. Separate spaces. This is not just us, my children also sometimes need time alone. They have their own space, too. I believe in boundaries. Everyone's relationship is different. This is what works for us.
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Post by Mystic Pegasus on Jul 17, 2009 1:17:57 GMT -5
What is his complaint with sleeping in the same bed??!! Are you bf/gf... or just a convenient distraction when he needs one!!! That would appall me!
I guess I'm lucky that my DH and I are on the same wavelength regarding being together... we are together basically 24/7 (work at home together, never go out without the other etc) and wouldn't want it any other way. While I understand not everyone is this way, the degree of *space* and *boundaries* your bf wants just seems completely foreign to me.
Is there a big issue with your clutter? Maybe this is affecting how he sees everything...
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kiz
New Member
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 86
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Post by kiz on Jul 17, 2009 1:42:26 GMT -5
I like my own bed, too... different course for different horses, I wouldn't necessarily feel hurt at that one.
I found the repeated professions of love as, well, just trying to get the message across this wasn't so much a "I hate you, chakraverte" than trying to drum home the message that "this is just where my oddities and your oddities clash - it's not a personal attack".
Some people, and we are even seeing it in this thread, take "I need space" as "I want to be away from YOU". I think he was just trying to get across that is was really about personal space and not the person.
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 17, 2009 3:01:53 GMT -5
I am far from the right person to give any advice on relationships. Personally, I think a truly good couples counselor is worth their weight in gold; bad ones can do tremendous harm and strain an already difficult situation even further.
I have to be honest and note that I found some of this restimulating to read, and brought up my own personal junk. One of the key things was the comment about sleeping space. Only you know what he is referring to, and what this means for you both. I know what came up for me is that my ex did not share my level of need for or reciprocate affection, including bed time cuddling, shared space, etc. This was one of many serious issues in what became a painfully lonely marriage.
This reminded me that I can't settle, it has to be ok to love what I love, and need what I need in a relationship. In the past I've been tremendously content with men who share my similar level for need of physical affection.
Again, hard to know with everything posted here what is happening because it's your relationship--and I'm not tremendously skilled in that area to begin with.
I'm sorry that came to you e-mail, and I hope things resolve smoothly.
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 17, 2009 8:17:50 GMT -5
What's loud and clear is that he needs space (and I'm a person who needed her space, and never really got it at all when I was married...and I suffered). He's either saying he needs to make sure that he has alone time, or he needs to make sure that your clutter does not impede upon him and he's troubled by it (two bedroom apartment or not...it's still THERE). In any case, he gave you a big clue when he said he "has to defend (his) space from you...whether it be physical, mental or emotional." That's a guy who's feeling overwhelmed by something...and it may be space, or it may be you and him.
We could analyze this one till the cows come home, but we don't know the relationship, and this one seems to go deep. But I do agree on one thing and that is to find things to do FOR YOURSELF this weekend. You can't change him. You can only change your response. Instead of sulking this weekend, do pleasant things for yourself...including trying to make headway on clutter with a smile (yes, it CAN be a pleasant experience to just put music on and have a snack and putter around). I'm sure you're doing better...he didn't say you aren't...but he's saying that something is troubling HIM. And I'd much rather have what you have than have what I had...a guy who wouldn't even TALK to me in 12 years of wedded "bliss."
Give it time, Chak. Patience. Don't be anxious to lunge at him.
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Post by charis on Jul 17, 2009 9:03:40 GMT -5
One thing that arises from time to time on these boards is the idea that loved ones who do not share a problem with clutter/squalor "do not get" that we cannot just decide to change.
We need to understand that someone who cannot bear to live in such disorder can be the same way---we cannot just demand that the person deal with it. That would be the same as someone saying to us "Why don't you just clean it up?"
Just as some of us cannot seem to live differently than we do, some people cannot live with the consequences of the way we live and that is no more evil than our cluttering is.
Cluttering IS a way to stake out territory, it does cause inconvenience to others, it does destroy peace and beauty, it is exhausting and demoralizing to be around when it is caused by others who are defiant or unchanging. The most wearing-down-of-the-soul part for most partners of clutterers is the untrusworthiness. By this I mean that the clutterer ALWAYS promises to change and doesn't, is forever stating plans to start 'soon' which never materialize. Trust erodes.
I have been the clutterer and the clutteree. I have flaked and made promises I havent kept. I am on the other end sometimes now and try to be patient.
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 17, 2009 9:10:30 GMT -5
Excellent post, Charis.
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Jul 17, 2009 12:28:14 GMT -5
Yes--excellent, insightful post.
All couples have differences on "smothering vs abandonment." I have felt smothered in some relationships, abandoned in others.
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Post by shabbychic on Jul 17, 2009 13:04:40 GMT -5
OK wow so much in this thread to respond to! I've been dealing with this issue all my life and I tend to be the one who needs an extreme amount of space and alone time. In fact I'm trying to work on tolerating less of it, because I also want to be close to the people I love and I tend to isolate myself.
Charis I loved your comment that clutter is a way of staking out territory. That's exactly the feeling I get from my adult son's clutter in the living room: it isn't *our* living room any more, it's his.
A question for the OP, did you and your BF lease the apartment together, or was it his or your apartment first and the other moved in? That can have a lot to do with feeling ownership, feeling invaded etc.
I have people in my family, and have had significant others, who were the opposite of me and couldn't understand the concept of space and boundaries, couldn't tolerate being alone in a room or a house even for a short period of time, couldn't tolerate doing one thing while I did another etc. I can't convey to a non-space needing person the level of distress I feel if I can't get alone when I need to. I shut down, finding my alone space in my head while I pretend to be asleep or something. Or I drive to the park and sit in the car, not always safe in my neighborhood. I need at least a little alone time every day just to maintain mental health, and if I don't have it for several days in a row I start to get clinically depressed and very unpleasant to live with. I know it's hard to understand if you don't have this need yourself. When I first got my own apartment, my adult daughter was hurt when I didn't appreciate her dropping by every single day right after work to "keep me company so I wouldn't be alone."
I can relate to bumping into each other in the kitchen! My kids started doing that when they were teenagers. I'd be washing dishes, and one would decide to put water in the dog's dish and just turn off the hot water, turn on the cold, shove in front of me and leave me standing with a soapy dish in my hand. Or I'd be preparing food, moving from sink to refrigerator to cabinet to counter, and while I was looking for ingredients in the refrigerator, say, they'd move my stuff on the counter and start doing something else in my counter space. Or block the cabinet that I needed to get to next. It made me feel like I was invisible. They would literally act like no one else was there. It also felt pretty disrespectful, like what they were doing was more important than what I was doing. I'd have to use Steve Martin's line "Excuuuuuuuuuse me!" to get their attention. It took a while to teach them (and learn myself) to ask - do you mind if I fill this water dish right quick? or - are you using this? or can you let me know when you're done because I need to ______.
Don't know if any of this is helpful. Looks like you guys have some good communication going on if he can articulate what's bothering him like he did in that email. (Although I agree, an email is a pretty impersonal way to deliver it. I especially would not like something like that coming to my work email where my supervisor and who knows who else could read it.) And speaking of work, I ought to get back to it. Lunch time's over.
Shabby Chic
My sister and her wife live in a two story house. They share a bedroom, but one of them keeps her clothes in the closet in the spare room upstairs so that they don't bump into each other when they're both rushing to get dressed for work. It works for them.
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