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Post by charis on Nov 10, 2009 17:04:11 GMT -5
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904574525642031182188.htmlArticle focusing mostly on non-hoarders who feel they need to clean up a hoarder's home because of a crisis. This was a disappointing article to me, because it didn't touch on hoarding from the point of view of an equal housemate I mean--if the situation is that Dad cannot get his walker down the hall to go to the bathroom and Mom the hoarder is willing to let him pee in the bed, there is no moral gray area. You "get" to go clean up. If no one is being hurt and you are an adult child not living in the house, then it is the hoarder's stuff, their place, and their feelings. No moral gray area --it is absolutely nobody's business to butt in if the person does not want help But I don't see articles about a spouse or partner. Where the issue is 'your stuff vs. our space'. A non hoarder has rights and surely doesn't have to do the "one paper at a time for years and years" thing.
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Post by wendy on Nov 11, 2009 19:42:23 GMT -5
Very interesting article, charis, and thanks so much for posting it! I agree with you, though, it didn't cover the hoarder's point of view, and the situations discussed might not apply to a lot of people.
Wendy
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Post by 60isolderthanithot on Nov 11, 2009 21:59:33 GMT -5
But isn't this true?
"When someone is so impaired that they are putting other people's lives at risk, then something has to be done," says Ms. Gibbs.
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Post by ivorytower on Nov 11, 2009 23:24:45 GMT -5
But isn't this true? "When someone is so impaired that they are putting other people's lives at risk, then something has to be done," says Ms. Gibbs. Yes, and that is the point the article is making. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every article about hoarding should include the hoarder's point of view. There are articles around that seek to present the hoarder's point of view without including the view of those who are affected by the hoarder's behaviour. I think it is an excellent article with a clear message that needs to be heard. Extreme hoarding and squalor can make life difficult and even dangerous for other people. |
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Post by yearning4order on Nov 12, 2009 1:35:37 GMT -5
I don't think the point of the article is to talk about hoarding from the hoarder's perspective. The point is to talk about the experience of those who are close to the hoarder; you'll note they didn't talk about neighbors all on the same block ganging up on the occupants of that "one house", breaking their way in and forcibly throwing away possessions. I still have trouble figuring out if I am or am not a hoarder--I don't know. So I'll try to resist sounding authoritative one way or the other because I don't know, and I may really not understand the struggle hoarders have. But this statement really caught my eye "A hoarder will do anything to protect and justify their behavior, just like a substance abuser would." From a *squalor* standpoint I can relate to this--and I'm a recovering alcoholic, so you know I can see my same dedication to protecting and justifying my behavior in other ways in my life.  I very clearly remember thinking, the way I would never host play dates, would tell my daughter the house was too dirty to have people come over, etc., I very much remember thinking "Wow, this isn't too different from the lives of kids growing up with drunks or drug addicts for parents...the whole no one can come over syndrome!" It was horrifying to me, I was deeply ashamed of that commonality. Sitting here thinking about it again makes me think I have to keep pushing on this thing, because the ability to slide right back is just there all the time. And I desperately don't want to have to disappoint my daughter ever again by telling her we can't host a sleep over because the house is too messy. In the last months before I began purging with your encouragement and support, I used to worry what would happen if I died before my poor mother and she would have to clean this place up. I am sure it probably crossed her mind more than once too, since I know she was deeply worried about me, and trying to not to make anything worse by saying anything I might interpret as negative. For those who clearly identify as hoarders, understand I don't write any of this to shame or say mean things. I still have a long way to go, still don't fully understand or have it worked out how to defend the space I have. But I think the article is on track talking about the opposite side of this whole experience, what it is like for our loved ones. At least for me, it's just really painful to read it and think about my daughter, my mother. It's sort of like going from an AA to an Al-Anon meeting and the focus is just really different--the Al-Anons aren't sitting around talking about how to cure the drinking alcoholic--they are talking about how to not go crazy and how to stay safe being around it. I guess I saw that same thread in the article. And yes, high emotions in the article too, just like non-drinking family members have toward drunks. |
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Post by breakingfree on Nov 12, 2009 16:03:32 GMT -5
I don't think the point of the article is to talk about hoarding from the hoarder's perspective. The point is to talk about the experience of those who are close to the hoarder; you'll note they didn't talk about neighbors all on the same block ganging up on the occupants of that "one house", breaking their way in and forcibly throwing away possessions. I still have trouble figuring out if I am or am not a hoarder--I don't know. So I'll try to resist sounding authoritative one way or the other because I don't know, and I may really not understand the struggle hoarders have. But this statement really caught my eye "A hoarder will do anything to protect and justify their behavior, just like a substance abuser would." From a *squalor* standpoint I can relate to this--and I'm a recovering alcoholic, so you know I can see my same dedication to protecting and justifying my behavior in other ways in my life. I very clearly remember thinking, the way I would never host play dates, would tell my daughter the house was too dirty to have people come over, etc., I very much remember thinking "Wow, this isn't too different from the lives of kids growing up with drunks or drug addicts for parents...the whole no one can come over syndrome!" It was horrifying to me, I was deeply ashamed of that commonality. Sitting here thinking about it again makes me think I have to keep pushing on this thing, because the ability to slide right back is just there all the time. And I desperately don't want to have to disappoint my daughter ever again by telling her we can't host a sleep over because the house is too messy. In the last months before I began purging with your encouragement and support, I used to worry what would happen if I died before my poor mother and she would have to clean this place up. I am sure it probably crossed her mind more than once too, since I know she was deeply worried about me, and trying to not to make anything worse by saying anything I might interpret as negative. For those who clearly identify as hoarders, understand I don't write any of this to shame or say mean things. I still have a long way to go, still don't fully understand or have it worked out how to defend the space I have. But I think the article is on track talking about the opposite side of this whole experience, what it is like for our loved ones. At least for me, it's just really painful to read it and think about my daughter, my mother. It's sort of like going from an AA to an Al-Anon meeting and the focus is just really different--the Al-Anons aren't sitting around talking about how to cure the drinking alcoholic--they are talking about how to not go crazy and how to stay safe being around it. I guess I saw that same thread in the article. And yes, high emotions in the article too, just like non-drinking family members have toward drunks. Your post hit home for me. I am both the child of a hoarder and a person with hoarding tendencies. I see the truth in this. BF |
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Post by xievajohnson on Nov 13, 2009 9:23:33 GMT -5
I think the article missed the boat.
In Al-anon or NAMI the focus is on the person dealing with their loved one's behavior - not on villainizing the loved ones. I don't think this article did a fair job differentiating. Undoubtedly parent's hoarding behaviors affect children, but once the child becomes an adult, they are no less responsible for their own healing than the hoarder is for theirs - KWIM?
The other thought I had was that resources for dealing with alcoholics are known, free, effective, and readily available. Once a person is ready to accept help, they can get it. With hoarding I don't think the same is true. I wasn't aware of help for hoarding until very recently. From what I've learned, the tools for helping hoarders are less well studies and less effective than for some other disorders - and usually, it seems, expensive.
0.02
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Post by 60isolderthanithot on Nov 13, 2009 13:58:00 GMT -5
I do wonder why people think that a particular birthday means their entire childhood suddenly loses relevance. It's obvious from OUR OWN STORIES IN HERE that a large number of people have lingering effects from long-ago injuries.
The article appeared to hit its target: people who are affected by hoarding. I didn't think it villainized hoarders, it allowed a couple of people to state directly how they were affected.
Undoubtedly, there are fewer resources for hoarders. It's finally getting some attention. What I found was that grief therapy, which was affordable and accessible, helped so much, I felt no need for "hoarding" professionals. Whatever is/was driving my situation has also been greatly improved by being HERE, in this group, able to listen to what was happening with other people. I've felt a sense of freedom to express my real truths -- and it has been very healing. If I had to make a choice, I'd give up the therapy and go with the group. (I do feel that strongly about it.)
I know it's not pleasant to think we've harmed others but those who are affected need to be heard too. It might prompt some of us to try harder, work longer, stay the course.
There is no magic pill and I've yet to be convinced we are best off in the hands of professionals anyway. I'm not sure that happy, healthy, un-depressed, un-hurt people live in squalor. Handle any one part of the constellation of behaviors that underlie hoarding/squalor and ALL of it will be partly healed to some extent. (My opinion only, I got my medical degree from Google.) For me, a breakthrough technique was grief therapy. For someone else, it might be treatment for depression or fibromyalgia or social isolation.
Guilt isn't always 100% bad. Feeling guilty can make us work harder to handle a problem. We do agree that it needs handling, right? When I think of the losses in my life attached to my hoarding and subsequent squalor, it makes me more motivated to clean or toss something today, right now, immediately.
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Post by xievajohnson on Nov 14, 2009 10:16:16 GMT -5
I agree that hoarding is a problem that needs to be addressed. I agree that many people are adversely affected by living with a hoarder. I agree that those affected people have legitimate experiences and that they should be heard.  But, in this article, there were far more negative, judging comments directed at the hoarder than description of direct experiences of the loved ones, IMHO. Examples of loved ones’ experience: * But many family members say the pain that hoarding inflicts on them is still largely unacknowledged * remembers having "heart palpitations" whenever the doorbell rang * The psychologists say you have to forgive to move on, but it's hard * Examples of negative comments (IMO, villainizing) * How sick was that? * her mother rebuffed any offers of help * She'll never change * Jeez—look at this mess * what to do with hoarders who refuse to change * Talk about blaming the victim * all I felt was rage at what my sister had done to my mother * ITA, but it can (and should) be done with mutual respect. Thanks for sharing that. I am new to this board and hadn’t thought that grief therapy might be helpful, yet it makes good sense. I have had some therapy in the past and have tentatively brought up hoarding issues, but no professional was responsive or helpful. It's unfortunate. For me, at the beginning of this journey of change, the guilt is not motivating. It is incapacitating. I am still lost in my feelings of loss and I don’t yet feel empowered. I DO have hope because you and other share you experiences here. Thank you.  -XJ |
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