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Post by Looking_Forward on Jan 17, 2010 13:46:19 GMT -5
When I work days in a row I get up at 4 am, usually home by 7:30 or 8 and straight to bed.
When it hits during the week, it's typically fine, the kids don't make a huge mess after school etc.
However, on the weekend DH shops and doesn't put anything away (I spent 45 minutes on Thursday putting miscellaneous bags of stuff away) If it was so important and we needed it soooo bad, why is it sitting in a grocery bag for 2 weeks?
*sigh*
Last night I was exhausted, came home with tunnel vision to go to bed and rest. When I got up this morning all the hard work I'd done on Thursday was gone. Dozens of grocery sacks, dishes everywhere, trash here and there.
DH just doesn't care.
How am I suppose to deal with someone who doesn't care? The kids will pick up, but they still need guidance (I'm here because I still need guidance!) but DH just.doesn't.care.
If they're playing with a game and I'm home when they're done with it they have no problem picking it up and putting away before they move on. DH doesn't know, doesn't care, doesn't see, just doesn't.
I can't deal with doesn't anymore.
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Post by Looking_Forward on Jan 17, 2010 13:47:15 GMT -5
It hurts, a lot, that he doesn't care how much of a problem this really is.
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Post by sleepymom on Jan 17, 2010 14:33:42 GMT -5
No words of advice, but I certainly sympathize. I have the same problem here.
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Post by shopgirl on Jan 17, 2010 14:55:47 GMT -5
Yes, it's sad when we are the only ones who care or notice. But being upset about it or getting into an argument about it just saps too much of my energy. It takes less energy to just put it on my list and clean it myself.
My DH also messes up the kitchen big time. I swear, the food is just flying around in there when he cooks. Very sloppy. I just noticed this morning how grimey the cabinets are, especially around the knobs. Not looking forward to cleaning them, but he never will. So it goes on my list of things to do this week. I know when I stop dreading it, the task will probably only take 15-30 minutes to do.
It's the dreading that takes forever.
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Post by Evelyn on Jan 17, 2010 14:56:26 GMT -5
You need DH's support and you're not getting it - that's always gotta hurt. (Crass, silly, probably utterly inapproprate, joke: Men. You can't live with 'em, and burying them in the basement just worsens the squalor. ) Two possibly useful thoughts: 1) Talk to him. Get him on neutral ground (as much as possible), when you're both calm & rested (as much as possible). Tell him how much you need his support, and how important keeping things as orderly as possible is to you. Give him baby steps to start with (maybe bags all in one place, dirty dishes in another, and trash gathered up in a third place?). Then tell him how much it hurts when you feel you're not getting his support in this. 2) For this one, you need to have already established some space (desk, garage, workbench, whatever) that is primarily "his" - most couples have some such place. And you need a big box or basket. Gather up all the bags, trash, dishes, etc. in the box, and put them in "his" space. When he asks, say "You left those in the kitchen/living room/family room/hallway, and I'm returning them to you - I knew you weren't done with them because you hadn't put them away."
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Jan 17, 2010 17:28:35 GMT -5
In order to change this dynamic for the better, you will need to determine what motivates DH. I doubt that "not caring" is the only reason. Determining this could take awhile, but it will help tremendously. Motivational interviewing techniques can ferret this out; this technique is what the hosts of the "Clean Your House" use to help the homeowners part with their stuff. MI questions include: "Imagine this room exactly as you want it to be. What activities would you do in here?" "Does keeping your mother's furniture help you feel closer to her?" "If the house were cleaned up, what would you be able to do that you can't do now?" "What's the biggest obstacle to getting the house cleaned up?"
Questions must be asked with an open heart towards whatever answer you hear, and presented in such a manner that the listener understands that you're really interested in learning more about him. If presented like a challenge or an interregation, they will not work.
While you may assume that DH doesn't care, it's also possible (from the voice of experience) that:
He doesn't know where to put things, He believes that no matter where he puts them, you'll tell him it's wrong, He doesn't understand how leaving stuff in its bags adds to the squalor, He believes that it's more efficient to leave stuff out where he can see it, He doesn't know how this annoys you, He really doesn't care whether the house is squalorous or not, He doesn't appreciate the impact that such a small action as putting purchases away can have in reducing squalor (all-or nothing perfectionism,) All of the above, or None of the above.
In my case, DH also wanted a tidier house, so we wouldn't be afraid to open the door, but he didn't know where to begin, had his own hoarding tendencies, is squeamish about touching squidgy bits, etc. After some frank discussions and working alone for a few months (so he could see the benefits) he agreed to let me be the "desqualoring coordinator" and mostly follow my lead (I have a stronger personality than he does, so he's used to me leading.) We actually sat down and discussed this several times. Once he agreed, I could then count on him following more direct instructions, such as "Next time you come downstairs, bring the dirty laundry. I'll have stuff for you to take upstairs, too." I could then get him to agree to refrain from piling crap just inside the front door, creating an "obstacle course." Etc, etc.
Once you know what motivates your DH, you can frame your requests in terms of how they help him achieve his goals, whatever they may be.
When all else fails, I tell my DH to "think of it as foreplay."
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Post by Magpie on Jan 17, 2010 17:42:53 GMT -5
The first things I wondered after reading your post were these:
What is his payoff for the behavior? What does he get out of creating a mess?
How would things be different in the relationship if he either didn't make a mess, or cleaned it up right away when he did?
Note that you don't have to get his answers to these questions - if you brainstorm a list of possible responses, you will get ideas, and that may be helpful.
Maggie
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Post by Arid on Jan 17, 2010 22:26:44 GMT -5
I may have suggested this to you before (or it could have been someone else; I honestly don't remember! !), but how about making a list or a "chore chart" for DH and the kids to follow while you are at work? For example, you can write at the top of a paper: "These are the things that need to be done EVERY DAY here at home while I am at work." 1. Any purchases should be put away. 2. Dirty dishes must be washed. 3. Laundry needs to be done. 4. Trash should be taken out appropriately. 5. Toys, games, and personal items should be put away before bedtime. 6. The floor should be vacuumed. . . . and so forth. Your "knee-jerk" reaction might be that this never will work, but hey--what's happening now isn't working either; it just might be worth a try! Good luck. Arid P.S. Don't forget the "pay off" when the whole family complies. What would they like? A pizza party? Going to a movie? Eating at a favorite restaurant? Each person gets $5.00 of "mad money?" A. P. P. S. My list needs to be re-written in the "active" voice; I've unwittingly written it in the "passive" voice. I. e.--change to direct statements: put away purchases; wash dirty dishes; do laundry, etc. A.
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Post by HFH on Jan 18, 2010 10:02:49 GMT -5
I feel this way ALL the time. It doesnt matter to them at all that we cant have people over.
I have not found any motivators that work. Occasionally I will get the cooperation of 1 or 2 of them but then they also get tired of the others not caring and just messing up what we already cleaned.
I guess, unfortunatly, majority wins and the majority wants to live in a sty. but I guess I am not strong enough to fight the majority.
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Post by charis on Jan 18, 2010 11:56:10 GMT -5
To Howardsgirlfriend's list of reasons i would add two:
He knows YOU will do it eventually anyway
An enormous sense of entitlement
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Post by Magpie on Jan 18, 2010 12:41:31 GMT -5
I have not found any motivators that work. Caveat - I'm not married, nor living with anyone, so take this with a block of salt! It is ideas, not mandates and may or may not be something you want to experiment doing. Sometimes, you have to look at other consequences which might motivate them - what things do you do for them that they like and want to continue? Its the old tit for tat or Mom/Wife quitting approach - if you want me to do X, I need you to do Y. You would start by identifying things to the other person and asking if the person likes having you do it. This starts your list of options. Um ... Only set those limits if you truly are willing to follow through and not do X unless and until they have done Y. When asked why you didn't do X, you politely explain just how tired you are from doing all the myriad other things you've been doing, and you only have a limited amount of energy, so sorry, that just isn't going to get done and you're sure the other person will understand. Maggie
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Post by phoenixcat on Jan 18, 2010 13:36:21 GMT -5
I will start by saying that this has only evolved after 20 years and something happened to me that pushed it along which I would not recommend as a solution to anyone. Our kids are furry so I also don't have that added stress but I do have the added stress of our own business. I used to do it all and even though I wasn't doing a very good job - I still thought my way was the best . My DH had "no clutter goggles" on and didn't see the house the way I did. He would help with the occasional "crisis" cleaning but that was about it. Then I was sick for about a year and couldn't do squat. Turns out that DH does care about having clean clothes, having food in the house, having pets cared for, having a clean dish, etc. On top of dealing with the most basic of house chores - he had to care for me. A bit of a life lesson for both of us. He realized all I did and I realized that it didn't matter who did it - as long as it eventually was done. Every couple/family has their own dynamic. My DH still has "no clutter goggles" - he doesn't see what I see in the way of housework. But he has taken on several tasks on a daily/weekly schedule that I back off and let him do at his own time and pace. I don't bother him about it unless it is never done. Sometimes, I will clean around him and huff/puff a bit and he may take the hint. Other than that - I ask him directly for every thing I need help with. After six years of carrying the laundry baskets between the laundry room and our bedroom - he still has to be reminded every single time. I also have to remind him that the dishwasher is empty and he doesn't have to stack dirty dishes in the sink. So after 20 years, I've learned that he will probably do whatever I ask - I just need to ask. I also need to ignore it if it isn't done as I would have done it. And, I need to let him do it at his schedule. I don't ask him to do anything during a game. But I will say - at the commercial break, could you "blah blah". You are right - he probably doesn't care the same way you do. I know my DH has absolutely no shame at letting work people come through the house. He doesn't see the mountains of clutter, the inch of dust or smell the smell or he plain doesn't care. One of the posters suggested reminding them of that you don't have time to do it all. Maybe it needs to be more spelled out in sacrifices they will have to make. I" can't do laundry and cook dinner - what do you want - clean clothes for tomorrow or dinner tonight or do you want to help me with both?" This works much better when most of the clothes are dirty and you don't have money for take out . It sounds like your DH is "hit and miss" - he occasionally does stuff and that the kids will work under direction so there is definitely potential. Maybe they will care more about helping you than caring about the house. Best wishes PC
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Jan 18, 2010 14:27:28 GMT -5
Your family probably doesn't care as much as you do, but everyone has some point at which they "hit bottom." It might be so squalorous at their "bottom" that you couldn't imagine it, but it's there.
My DH's biggest fear about our squalor was that someone who didn't know us would learn of it, and believe we were mentally ill. I feared that too, but my "bottom" was when I didn't want to let my sister inside. Some people will tolerate the loss of hot water, heat, or other utilities before they "hit bottom;" others have lost their children to the authorities without "hitting bottom." We tolerated the loss of adequate lighting in the kitchen for a couple of years.
Go after your DH first. A non-threatening way to phrase it would be, "We all know that the state of the house is more important to me than to you. I can't help but wonder: if I weren't here, at what point would you know that it's time to clean up?"
What would he tolerate before "hitting bottom?" Loss of access to fire exits? Loss of a working bathroom? Loss of family connections? Loss of your kids to the authorities? Ask him---ask him directly, without an accusatory tone in your voice. You might be surprised at his answer. Once you find out where his "bottom" is, you can figure out how to proceed.
For example, my DH and I had that fear of outsiders doubting our sanity. He and I didn't agree on "how tidy is tidy enough," but that's an easier problem to solve than whether the house needed to be tidy enough to keep us from having our sanity in question!
I was able to use his fear of outsiders to keep him motivated. I invited my mom over more often, chatted with our neighbors, and organized a neighborhood garage sale. Last year, we had one of his coworkers and her DH over for the Superbowl--a powerful motivator for him. We still had disagreement as to "how tidy is tidy enough," but that's much easier to resolve than whether they needed chairs and a working bathroom!
If your DH is willing to tolerate conditions so squalorous that you aren't willing to fall that far, a possible motivator could be, "I'm willing to be in charg of cleaning up enough to keep us from (insert whatever DH's "hitting bottom" is.) In order for me to do the bulk of the work (heck--you already do it now, so you're not giving anything away here,) I need to be able to do A, B, and C. In order for me to do those, I need you to do X, Y, and Z. What will it take for US to accomplish this?"
If it's simply a matter of his standards being lower than yours, or his being willing to "live closer to the edge" of squalor than you are, you will need to insist that since you're doing most of the work, you need to have more of a "tidiness cushion" than he thinks ecessary. For example, if you were sick for a couple of weeks, would the house become unhabitable? That's not acceptable. Would he be willing to pick up the slack if you were sick? That's a bit different.
Conversations of this sort helped me determine that my DH's squeamishness gave me tremendous leverage. As long as I cleaned up the pet mess, kitchen, and bathrooms, DH would do almost anything else I asked. I have learned to insist on the "tidiness cushion" that I need to be able to cope with the unexpected.
We have worked on this process for a couple of years now. Some things have worked better than others, but we ARE working together.
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Post by CaringFriend on Jan 18, 2010 15:08:42 GMT -5
Such good advice from all! Many good possibilities to try. How about one more? Believe it or not, like someone else suggested, your DH may not know where things belong. We've lived in this house more than 25 years and my DH puts things away - it's just the wrong place! He is a neat person, from whom I have learned many good habits. So I know he's not playing "games" by putting things in the wrong place. Either: (1) he doesn't use the item, so doesn't have a clue where it is kept, or (2) he simply just doesn't remember where it belongs. In my case, I find myself replacing something on a shelf approx. once a week. If I were in your shoes and came home to bags of groceries sitting around, as soon as I felt I had even a small bit of time, but mostly a big bit of energy, I'd call him into the room and say, "Let's put these things away. Then at least that will be 4 (or whatever) fewer things sitting around." Say that instead of "Why didn't you put these away?" or instead of " Help me put these away." Asking him to help you seems to infer that it's your responsibility. Another thought............ You did ask a good question, "If it was so important and we needed it soooo bad, why is it sitting in a grocery bag for 2 weeks?" Maybe it's time to focus on his purchases for just a bit to see exactly what he is buying. Sounds like he's not using the shopping list and spending $ unnecessarily and who can afford that? While the 2 of you are putting things away, ask him, "Why did you buy xyz? We already have 2 on the shelf?" I forget which "organizing/reality" show I watched a while back. The mother shopped every week, spending several hundreds of $ for groceries for DH, 2 teens, and herself. Then she'd come home to crammed-full fridge & cabinets which she would proceed to empty everything into the trash. Their groceries got put away, but the next week everything would be thrown in the trash when she brought home new groceries.........rinse and repeat. Point: perhaps your DH is like this woman and is automatically buying what he thinks is needed w/o checking to see what the actual needs are. Keeping a list of needs on the side of the fridge should solve that problem. Our shopping list is prominent and is added to immediately when we use up something or it's nearly used. "Every problem has a solution. Keep trying until you find something that works."
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Post by messyang on Jan 18, 2010 15:12:09 GMT -5
Amen Amen Amen to your post! My kids will clean but not well, and with an attitude. I am tired of it!
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