ren
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Post by ren on Sept 27, 2008 16:16:53 GMT -5
Hi all; I don't live in squalor, but I have two close family members who do. I have just returned from moving my adult niece and her two kids and what I found when I got to her house put me in a state of shock. There was all manner of debris on her floors. I had to step through piles of papers and pop cans. Her children had discarded those teensy little cellophane wrappers from juice box straws all over the carpet, which was black with filth. Every horizontal surface had been spilled on multitudinous times and never been wiped up. I won't go in further detail, you know of what I speak. On top of all this, nothing was packed. Oh, she had a few boxes of kitchen spices packed, and a couple of boxes with random items of clothing thrown in them. When I spoke to her on the phone earlier this week, she said she wasn't completely packed yet- I took it with a grain of salt, and figured that she was most likely mostly packed. My gf, brother and I literally threw away four dumpsters full of random crap in her apartment and garage. She seemed not to notice that her apartment was in really bad shape. According to what I've been reading here, squalor dwellers do understand that their places are out of control messy. She's moved down to my city and is now living with my mom, who has the same affliction, but to a lesser degree. Only my mom's basement is really out of control.
I am alarmed for my niece and I want to know if there is a pathological aspect to this. She has OCD, like everyone other woman in my family. I wouldn't be shocked if she's depressed, because she's been through a lot.
Do I bring it up? Or should I just assume she knows that how she was living is not normal? Is there a medication that can help? Counseling?
I'm worried about my grand-niece and nephew (plus another on the way), and I worry that they'll destroy my mom's house. I did tell my mom that she must forbid eating in any room but the kitchen.
I apologize if I shouldn't have posted here, since I'm not the afflicted party- does anybody here have any suggestions?
Thank you in advance, Ren
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Post by skitter on Sept 27, 2008 16:37:12 GMT -5
Ren, I don't have answers to your questions, but you sound as though you do really want to understand so that you can help, and help protect your mother's home for all of them.
I'm sure someone else will be able to answer your questions or direct you to the best sites, but I just wanted to say that it sounds as though your niece is really overwhelmed right now and perhaps if you ask her there are some ways that you can be supportive of her.
Cheers, skitter
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Sept 27, 2008 18:20:33 GMT -5
- I am alarmed for my niece and I want to know if there is a pathological aspect to this. She has OCD, like everyone other woman in my family. I wouldn't be shocked if she's depressed, because she's been through a lot.
Do I bring it up? Or should I just assume she knows that how she was living is not normal? Is there a medication that can help? Counseling? Hello! Here, we primarily emphasize getting out of our own messes, rather than focussing on somebody else's mess. The first thing you should know is that when you throw away dumpsters full of a hoarder’s belongings without their permission, then you could make the problem WORSE. That is because they might feel violated and end up wanting to hoard more things as a protective barrier. However, if they ASK you to throw away their stuff, they will still feel a lot of pain, but will eventually be grateful for your assistance. However it is necessary to have clear guidelines from them saying what they will and will not permit.. and you need to respect those guidelines. When you force such a change on someone, they resist and feel worse. Remember ... if you throw away an alcoholic's booze, they will be angry and just buy more. But if you send them to Alcoholics Anonymous, then then can choose to transform their lives. Another point: Even if they ASK you to clean their house, that will help temporarily but it won't help in the long term. Us squalorous and hoarding type people need to learn new skills, such as how to sort the useful from the useless, and how to do basic cleaning that we always felt overwhelmed by. Basic stuff that "normal" people already know how to do. We need to learn these skills. That's what is so helpful about this forum you are reading right now. The key for us squalorers and hoarders is to is for you "cleanies" to empower us to change ourselves. You could always give your niece the link to www.squalorsurvivors.com (our mother site) and let her decide how she wants to proceed. None of us changed until we were ready. I'm not going to go into more details giving advice to you, as I need to spend my time cleaning up my own messes. You are welcome to lurk here and read and learn how we think. But posting is primarily for us messy folks. You can read about the causes of squalor here: www.squalorsurvivors.comSee both the areas under "causes" and under "overcoming yourself". Resources for people who are in relationship to squalorous/hoarding people. These groups might help you to understand your niece and your mother better. There are some groups listed on the righthand column of this page: www.squalorsurvivors.com/supporters/index.shtmlI have heard very good things about "Overcoming Hoarding Together", which you can find at health.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-H-T/Here are a few different descriptions I've read online: - "Overcoming Hoarding Together" is for people in loving relationship to a hoarder. There is an emphasis on respect, dignity, appreciation, education, communication, honesty and boundaries for both the hoarder and oneself. It is a place to discuss and report on efforts to resolve the situation in place and is not designed as a support for those wanting to end a relationship or solve someone else's (the hoarder's) problem for them. O-H-T encourages everyone to own their own victories.
- "Overcoming Hoarding Together". For people who are in a personal relationship to others who have hoarding disorder. Giving family/friends a place to interact, normalize what they are feeling, and offer education, enlightenment, and encouragement. This group is under the guidance of a licensed marriage and family therapist. Membership is limited to adults.
- There is also a description on the site's homepage:
"O-H-T · Overcoming Hoarding Together": For people who are in a personal relationship to others who have hoarding disorder. Giving family/friends a place to interact, normalize what they are feeling, and offer education, enlightenment, and encouragement. Discussion of solutions involving manipulation or deceit, not welcome. Dehoarding is a process, not an event.
- TO CLARIFY -- that's one single website -- I merely posted several different descriptions of the same place -- "Overcoming Hoarding Together" whose URL is
health.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-H-T/ .
-----
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ren
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Joined: September 2008
Posts: 6
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Post by ren on Sept 27, 2008 19:40:14 GMT -5
- I am alarmed for my niece and I want to know if there is a pathological aspect to this. She has OCD, like everyone other woman in my family. I wouldn't be shocked if she's depressed, because she's been through a lot.
Do I bring it up? Or should I just assume she knows that how she was living is not normal? Is there a medication that can help? Counseling? Hello! Here, we primarily emphasize getting out of our own messes, rather than focussing on somebody else's mess. The first thing you should know is that when you throw away dumpsters full of a hoarder’s belongings without their permission, then you could make the problem WORSE. That is because they might feel violated and end up wanting to hoard more things as a protective barrier. However, if they ASK you to throw away their stuff, they will still feel a lot of pain, but will eventually be grateful for your assistance. However it is necessary to have clear guidelines from them saying what they will and will not permit.. and you need to respect those guidelines. When you force such a change on someone, they resist and feel worse. Remember ... if you throw away an alcoholic's booze, they will be angry and just buy more. But if you send them to Alcoholics Anonymous, then then can choose to transform their lives. Another point: Even if they ASK you to clean their house, that will help temporarily but it won't help in the long term. Us squalorous and hoarding type people need to learn new skills, such as how to sort the useful from the useless, and how to do basic cleaning that we always felt overwhelmed by. Basic stuff that "normal" people already know how to do. We need to learn these skills. That's what is so helpful about this forum you are reading right now. The key for us squalorers and hoarders is to is for you "cleanies" to empower us to change ourselves. You could always give your niece the link to www.squalorsurvivors.com (our mother site) and let her decide how she wants to proceed. None of us changed until we were ready. I'm not going to go into more details giving advice to you, as I need to spend my time cleaning up my own messes. You are welcome to lurk here and read and learn how we think. But posting is primarily for us messy folks. You can read about the causes of squalor here: www.squalorsurvivors.comSee both the areas under "causes" and under "overcoming yourself". Resources for people who are in relationship to squalorous/hoarding people. These groups might help you to understand your niece and your mother better. There are some groups listed on the righthand column of this page: www.squalorsurvivors.com/supporters/index.shtmlI have heard very good things about "Overcoming Hoarding Together", which you can find at health.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-H-T/Here are a few different descriptions I've read online: - "Overcoming Hoarding Together" is for people in loving relationship to a hoarder. There is an emphasis on respect, dignity, appreciation, education, communication, honesty and boundaries for both the hoarder and oneself. It is a place to discuss and report on efforts to resolve the situation in place and is not designed as a support for those wanting to end a relationship or solve someone else's (the hoarder's) problem for them. O-H-T encourages everyone to own their own victories.
- "Overcoming Hoarding Together". For people who are in a personal relationship to others who have hoarding disorder. Giving family/friends a place to interact, normalize what they are feeling, and offer education, enlightenment, and encouragement. This group is under the guidance of a licensed marriage and family therapist. Membership is limited to adults.
- There is also a description on the site's homepage:
"O-H-T · Overcoming Hoarding Together": For people who are in a personal relationship to others who have hoarding disorder. Giving family/friends a place to interact, normalize what they are feeling, and offer education, enlightenment, and encouragement. Discussion of solutions involving manipulation or deceit, not welcome. Dehoarding is a process, not an event.
- TO CLARIFY -- that's one single website -- I merely posted several different descriptions of the same place -- "Overcoming Hoarding Together" whose URL is
health.groups.yahoo.com/group/O-H-T/ .
----- Well, thank you so much for the friendly and constructive feedback. I'm really trying to understand what's up with her. I'm not judging her, I love her to death. I did not throw her stuff away without permission. She told me in advance that my brother's sixteen foot long trailer would be sufficient to haul her few worldly possessions back home in. In fact, that was not the case and this is why we ended up pitching so much stuff. I certainly won't be directing her here, since it doesn't seem it would be very helpful.
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ren
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Joined: September 2008
Posts: 6
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Post by ren on Sept 27, 2008 19:45:34 GMT -5
Ren, I don't have answers to your questions, but you sound as though you do really want to understand so that you can help, and help protect your mother's home for all of them. I'm sure someone else will be able to answer your questions or direct you to the best sites, but I just wanted to say that it sounds as though your niece is really overwhelmed right now and perhaps if you ask her there are some ways that you can be supportive of her. Cheers, skitter Thanks to you skitter, for your polite reply. My niece is overwhelmed. Her husband just bailed on her, she's pregnant with their third child, and she's moving back home to be near to her Grandma and her Auntie. I think she's chronically depressed- she didn't have the most amazing childhood after her folks moved out of our state when she was eight years old. Her Grandmother and I are doing all we can to help her emotionally and financially and get her back on her feet again. I'm suspecting that she was aware that what she's been doing isn't quite "normal"- I mean, why does somebody have boxes of soda cartons? I seek only to understand what's going on with her. Her husband may seek custody of the kids, and he could use the squalor as a weapon against her. Anyway, good luck to you all. This must be a very painful thing to endure. I meant no harm and will go ask a professional some questions. Slainte'!
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Sept 27, 2008 19:53:58 GMT -5
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Post by ghettofabulous on Sept 27, 2008 19:58:51 GMT -5
Hi Ren,
Courageously Lion always gives great advice, with links to some excellent resources.
Many of us go to great lengths to hide the condition of our homes Ren. To have someone come in as you did would be extremely upsetting, at least to me. I would have invented every excuse in the book to stop you from coming.
Since I was so good at hiding my problem, it took me a long time, years and years until I realized I had a problem. I wonder if someone had tried to help me earlier, if I would have listened.
I personally think it is worth trying to help the person, as CLSS suggests, showing them information, but you can't force a hoarder to throw out their stuff, you'll just freak them out.
Good luck to you and your family.
GhettoFabulous
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ren
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Joined: September 2008
Posts: 6
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Post by ren on Sept 27, 2008 21:56:27 GMT -5
Thanks so much, Courageouslylion and ghettofabulous... I will make use of the links you provided. Forgive me for sounding a wee bit cranky- I spent two days in the Minneapolis area with very little sleep, cranking like crazy to try and get my niece her security deposit back, or a portion of it. Already, my niece seems happier. She always said that my town (and my mom's) feels like home to her. I only want her to be happy. I do appreciate your advice and information.
Take care, Ren
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ren
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Post by ren on Sept 27, 2008 22:23:45 GMT -5
Hi Ren, Courageously Lion always gives great advice, with links to some excellent resources. Many of us go to great lengths to hide the condition of our homes Ren. To have someone come in as you did would be extremely upsetting, at least to me. I would have invented every excuse in the book to stop you from coming. Since I was so good at hiding my problem, it took me a long time, years and years until I realized I had a problem. I wonder if someone had tried to help me earlier, if I would have listened. I personally think it is worth trying to help the person, as CLSS suggests, showing them information, but you can't force a hoarder to throw out their stuff, you'll just freak them out. Good luck to you and your family. GhettoFabulous Oh...she preferred me to come to her house, as opposed to "Two men and a truck"...a company I was willing to pay for. I have been reading the links provided by CourageouslyLion, and I'm wondering if this is an extension of her OCD. My niece, mom, sisters and I all have it...my niece seems to have branched off in one of the directions my mom has taken, although my niece and I have some similar components. My family is a bouillaibasse of mental illness. Thank you for your good wishes!
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Post by DJ on Sept 28, 2008 0:20:53 GMT -5
welcome to the board and i can understand your desire to help your family.. yes, hoarding and squalor are frequently an extension of or ocd from what i've seen.
imagine something gets dirty. ohno it's too dirty to get near to clean, avoid it, until your home's completely overwhelming.. extremely simplified but something i've watched loved ones go through. or. perfectionism w/ ocd. i you can't get it done perfectly, then it's not worth doing. life gets overwhelming, things go undone, they all need to be done perfectly, overwhelm, brainmeltdown. again, an extremely simplified version of what can go through someone's head things get bad, embarrassed to ask for help where someone else might. become alienated from friends and family.. there are just so many reasons aspects and causes. but ocd can frequently be a part of it from what i've seen. hoarding and ocd can go painfully hand in hand. depression can also lead to squalor in its own way. and ocd and depression can feed each on each other as well and while one might help with beginning squalor and hoarding, the depression can leave you debilitated and sap the strength energy to do much about it as well as seriously injure your self image and self esteem.. it's all difficult...
i figure any time anyone's doing something to hurt themself or put themself in a bad situation they need love, compassion and understanding.... please remember this first and foremost with your niece. i highly doubt she woke up one day and said she wanted to start living in squalor. things happen, and then they can become unmanagable and snowball beyond control for many, many reasons. i don't know why with niece.. but she was brave, really, to reach out for help. please respect and save that trust. it did horrify you but she trusted you enough to ask for your help. hard to remember probably as your slogging through and recuperating from helping. but imagine if you weree living in it.. already overwhelming for you, imagine for her, living in it, they are her things and she is bound up with them emotionally, and the fear of judgement she must have felt...
btw. CL is a source of vast amounts of information. she might have been abrupt in giving it but they are all extremely helpful sources and this is a difficult area to compile resources like those on. her post will probably be one of the most information rich ones you will receive. this site actually is amazingly helpful for providing supportive, caring, compassionate company, advice, and understanding for people dealing with these issues and people try to relay resources to those seeking help for loved ones. i was hurt by your response to CL when she took the time to give so much info to you. I understand you're overwhelmed by your recent experience.. please imagine the overwhelm of those who live in it day to day and are subjecte to harsh, if not downright cruel reactions when help is sought.... it's painful and damaging and a set back to all the effort that is made...
it's far more, usually, than simply the physical condition of a home.. frequently reflects painful emotional problems or life occurrences that are reflected in the state of our homes... it's not just doing the dishes or throwing out some trash.. there is usually alot of emotional work to be dealt with whenever there is squalor... and it can be painful:/
it feels downright scary sometimes talking to someone who doesn't have these problems about the problems.. fear of judgement, criticism, and really just cruelty... there's a thread in the main forum about how some people have commented on a women who's squalor was exposed online in pics when her apartment management entered her apartment.. people can be cruel.. and that's scary. it's really scary when they're being cruel when you're actually trying to fix a problem...
sorry this is long and i admire you for caring about your family and wanting to help her.. i'm just trying to express that there can be a great deal of emotional involvement and fear for many different reasons. if you ever see hostility, or feel shut down.. please understand that the most likely reason is not ever going to be an attack on you but someones own fears, insecurities, or hurts.. this is a really great community and one of the things i love about it most is the support, warm welcomes, and absolute lack of judgement you'll encounter here.. and if anyone does get their backs up, it's almost always going to be because they are wanting to protect someone elses sense of safety, such as your niece's, as she goes through a very emotionally difficult time.. having an aspect of her life in plain sight as she looks for help... i think alot of us can empathise with her and wish we could help, because that's what this community is for.. helping and supporting others with similar problems...
heart goes out to all involved.. and hoping for the best with everything.
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ren
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Post by ren on Sept 28, 2008 20:51:29 GMT -5
i figure any time anyone's doing something to hurt themself or put themself in a bad situation they need love, compassion and understanding.... please remember this first and foremost with your niece. i highly doubt she woke up one day and said she wanted to start living in squalor. things happen, and then they can become unmanagable and snowball beyond control for many, many reasons. i don't know why with niece.. but she was brave, really, to reach out for help. please respect and save that trust. it did horrify you but she trusted you enough to ask for your help. hard to remember probably as your slogging through and recuperating from helping. but imagine if you weree living in it.. already overwhelming for you, imagine for her, living in it, they are her things and she is bound up with them emotionally, and the fear of judgement she must have felt... heart goes out to all involved.. and hoping for the best with everything. Yes. I feel honored that she trusted me, and really, I did not show my shock. I am a master at disguising my true feelings. I was somewhat a hoarder as a youth. I don't know how it just stopped for me. My niece's folks have ditched her, and I am the family member who reached out to her. My sister had her when we were just teenagers, and I raised my niece for the first year of her life, so in many ways she is like a child to me. I hate that she may be in pain, and want to alleviate it in any way I can. Thanks to CourageouslyLion, I have a name I can put to the disorder. I have been steadily researching it since I contacted this forum. I won't intrude upon you good people any further, but I do thank you for the very valuable information you have provided me. Please send good thoughts and prayers to my dear niece and her children. Thanks, Ren
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Post by skitter on Sept 28, 2008 21:39:15 GMT -5
You'll all be in my thoughts and prayers Ren, best wishes!
skitter
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Sept 28, 2008 22:46:28 GMT -5
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OnTiptoe
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Post by OnTiptoe on Sept 29, 2008 3:26:25 GMT -5
"please remember this first and foremost with your niece. i highly doubt she woke up one day and said she wanted to start living in squalor. things happen, and then they can become unmanagable and snowball beyond control for many, many reasons." I've been affected by messiness my entire life. These past several years I have yearned to be "free" from this way of life. I can't seem to understand why order from the chaos is eluding me. I never wanted to live my life like this, but I can't seem to figure out what to do to make it better. NO, no one in this situation WANTS it that way. Addressing those afflicted with simplistic answers or trite solutions like, "just throw it away" or assuming that we are *** and would help ourselves out of it with a little more effort is, from the core, another judgemental response. One is only completely free from judgement when walking a "mile in another's shoes". If you have never experienced the conumdrum of a life of squalor, you cannot begin to understand that simplistic ideas or solutions are really of no help. Even "gentle" suggestions can hurt us. I think the best way to help is to offer actual HELP! Yes, they SHOULD clean up after themselves, but faced with the overwhelm, having someone to offer moral and maybe physical assistance can mean the world! Working with a person, at their pace for removing the unwanted(rather useless to you) objects and giving them LOTS of praise and encouragment along the way. Be there.. no matter what! Let them know how much you love them regardless of this aspect of their life.
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