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Post by yearning4order on Jul 10, 2009 13:38:25 GMT -5
I'm going to be quite honest: I asked for some suggestions, not judgement about my parenting. To those of you who offered suggestions, ideas and strategies, I very much appreciate your help.
Some of the other commentary was particularly judgemental, and I will be very honest: I am angry.
If you haven't seen my photos outlining progress on the house you are making an assumption I am not doing anything, being *** and insisting my daughter do something that I am not. Likewise, parenting styles differ and again there are assumptions being made that are not accurate.
There are many places in the house I am not asking my daughter to participate in cleaning because I am quite clear they are *my* messes.
Also keep in mind, if you don't have kids, you should enjoy this time right now because you will never know this much about how to parent "correctly" again.
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Post by brenda on Jul 10, 2009 14:02:14 GMT -5
I would require her to get her clothes for the school day laid out the night before.
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Post by sunshineshouse on Jul 10, 2009 15:16:48 GMT -5
Hi Yearning I would suggest having your daughter pick her clothes out for the next day early in the evening, like right after dinner. Make sure you take a look at them, just in case. When my girls were a little younger, I would make them hang their clothes on a hanger on the bedroom doorknob, with the shoes they were going to wear right underneath, so nothing would get lost before morning. Also, they sometimes picked out clothes that weren't weather appropriate, etc. Helps to have the school calendar nearby if you need to keep track of what days they have gym, and that sort of thing. I know you are working hard to make changes in your home, so please don't be too discouraged. I'm also divorced, and I know it was a little tough for the girls to be going back and forth with clothes and other possessions. Also, I didn't know if clothes coming back with them were worn or not - so I ended up rewashing everything. It only made me more annoyed when clean stuff ended up on the floor. It took everything in me not to scream and yell, but to calmly explain, over and over, that they needed to put things where they belonged. They are older, and better about it. Not to say things still don't end up on the floor, but they can find their clean clothes to wear every day. If your daughter is not throwing in your face "your room isn't clean, so why should I clean mine?" - I wouldn't bring it up! You will get to that, but you wisely are working on the shared areas of the house. I've seen your pics with the work you have done on the rec room - great job! You have a plan, so keep going with it. It is difficult to work the desqualoring in with our regular lives - cooking, errands, pet care, work! I'd like to think that as the rest of your home falls into place, your daughter will be inspired to keep her room in better shape. Fingers crossed  |
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Post by rubyred on Jul 11, 2009 9:00:38 GMT -5
[Our bedroom is always the messiest room, too, but that's because the adults are responsible for the whole house. That does not make us hypocrites. I believe beyond this, we don't have to explain further to our children. ] You're certainly entitled to your opinion :-) but I disagree. And let me tell you why. When I was growing up, my mom kept a spotless house (but she wasn't fanatical...it's just the way she kept house). She always encouraged me, nurtured me, helped me. My dad dominated me...I got a lot of "because I'm the parent, and I said so. Just DO IT. You don't know your a-- from a hole in the ground. When you get older, you'll thank me for this." You know who helped me learn? My mom. You know who taught me to fear? My dad. I think that any time you live in a squalorous household (and are the child of divorce, as my children were) you have to take those things into account as well. We don't owe them any further explanation? Just do it because I said so and I'm boss? I shudder at that. I could not look at my children in all good conscience...with squalor surrounding me...and say to them, "You have to do this because I said so and I'm the adult and don't owe you an explanation, kid." My children weren't things I owned. They were humans who had feelings and bad days and stress, too. And children of divorce have it even more. Paperpiler - those are all good points and I agree that we shouldn't be domineering. I think I said the OP should direct her daughter because she's tried so many other things and I know that that is what I have to do with my 9 year old because she doesn't put forth the effort to clean her room to the point that I sometimes stand there and direct her. Her 10 year old brother keeps his clean, so I know "clean your room" is not an unreasonable request, unless the room really is already squalorous or very cluttered. As for the not owing the kids an explanation beyond we are responsible for the whole house so our room suffers, I had my daughter's and son's voice in my head when I typed that. Picture a snotty voice of a child who doesn't want to clean and says, "Well, your room's a mess and you're not cleaning it!" (said while I'm washing dishes and doing laundry) and I guess I projected my frustrations on the OP's situation. I have said in the past to the children that my room would be spotless if that were my only responsibility, but they can still be snotty about it. *sigh* Maybe I need parenting tips. |
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Post by rubyred on Jul 11, 2009 9:13:28 GMT -5
I would require her to get her clothes for the school day laid out the night before. Yes, please do this. I'm a special ed teacher assistant (working on my certification to teach!) and all of our grades, K-5, are hard at work on reading or writing or math as soon as that bell rings. Children who arrive late miss quite a bit of the math or reading lesson, and their grades can suffer. The class is also disrupted. I know that parents usually don't do this on purpose because many of them just don't realize how quickly after the bell rings that we move right into a core academic subject. (I say parents, not students, because realistically, the adults control what time their children get to school.) Please don't take this as a lecture. As a parent first, and an adult in the classroom second, I'm suggesting you have a routine at night. She should give you her clean clothes so that you can iron and put them in a special place for her, with underwear, socks and shoes. She should make sure her backpack is ready. Your clothes should be ready to go, too. Best of luck. |
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 11, 2009 12:50:41 GMT -5
I feel compelled to reply again on this, in part because I think a number of people are confusing their own childhood restimulation with what my question actually was. To be clear when I originally posted my question there was much I did not post, in part because quite honestly it would have taken 2 hours to accomplish. I also didn't expect it would turn into an attack on my parenting.
Please, when responding on issues of parenting, especially if you don't have children already, consider that due to the nature of text communication on a forum you might not have all the information. Likewise, if you think more encouragement is better where children are concerned, then do not berate the person you are responding to. I am still shocked this was a response I received here.
If you make the mistake of confusing your own childhood issues with my parenting (and most of you don't actually know me beyond the bare bones of what I have described here) that is about you. Many here, myself included came from some very troubled backgrounds. That I have endeavored to become the parent I am now is the product of decades worth of participation in 12 step programs, counselling, and the advice of a medical professional.
As an example--in the US spanking is a widely accepted parenting method. Without questioning the validity of this for other parents, for myself, having been raised in an exceptionally violent household, I could not reconcile this practice as something I could safely engage in for many reasons. To this date, my daughter has never known the fear of discipline leading to something physical. (Parents, if you spank in your homes, I bear you no ill will, no judgement, please do not read this as judgement.)
That said, I am human, and when I ask for suggestions (especially what for me is well into the bedtime hours on the US West Coast), it's because I'm fresh out of creativity. I am a single mother, there is no backup, and even when I was married, there was no backup.
Since my parenting somehow came into question:
There are many details I didn't post--but chief among them is that part of my parenting relationship with my child centers on the fact that we are humans striving for improvement. I am not afraid to let her know this is true about adults, and that our worst deeds are defending lies and attempting to avoid correcting the wrongs we have done.
So when she was younger, if I caught her lying, I told her stories about how I lied and the consequences I received. There were many different kinds of stories told for sure, many of them quite funny because I was a real naughty kid. This is not all that I do in the face of misbehavior, but my intention is to teach correction of misdeeds and redemption as a method of restoring oneself--and that more often than not honesty and making amends for our misdeeds both feels better and is well received in the end.
For the most part I do not often ask my daughter to do things "because I said so", but if I do, I have no guilt about it since it's the exception rather than the rule.
In this case, with the cleaning I have been up front about my striving, about wanting to improve, at various points asking for her help, even paying her when she helped on things that had *nothing to do with her* and were my mess. Do not assume I am using my kid to deal with all this, her involvement in the cleaning that has happened so far has been negligible, in part because most of it is done while she is at her dad's for the weekend.
More often than not I do like to make sure what I'm asking her to do is something I have already done, can do--but in this case the order of cleaning in the house is not starting with bedrooms for a reason. The payoff of starting with rec room/office is HUGE because it's given us a staging area, as well as the storage for where to offload many things in her room.
This slow moving of things out of her room into the rec room is happening--but in the meantime I will literally be triggered all over and fall back into squalordom if her clothes can't sometimes be dealt with in her room--because the chaos goes other places, including our daily schedule.
At this point the challenge is both defending what we have, and containing messes in their zone until I am ready to deal with them. It's simply not bedroom week yet. That might have to happen after rec room/office. The cleaning occurring now is ongoing. We have nearly finished the rec room. Last night I spent hours in my office cleaning.
Imagine this another way: I'm a newly sober alcoholic and she is a much older child living in my home (lets say legal drinking age). At this point it's just too restimulating to be around someone drinking in my home, and yet, she likes to come home and open up a beer. While I know in the future the goal I'm shooting for is to be spiritually fit enough that this shouldn't even be an issue, the fact of the matter is that I'm newly sober. So yes, I ask my kid to please not drink in the house right now. The fact that I was a horrible alcoholic leading up to all this doesn't negate that I am trying to make a large life change, and my request is made to defend that, not because I'm deluded into thinking I'm a model citizen, a finished product, or a belligerant tyrant.
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Post by gettingsomewhere on Jul 12, 2009 13:53:32 GMT -5
hugs to you y4o. i have a similar issue with my youngest also, and i feel that the suggestions to place the next day's clothes out before bedtime will solve a great deal of our problems. no it isnt fixing the putaway problem, but by bringing in that one bit of routine, our girls will find their mornings so much easier that they just might decide they like it! and will want to move on from there! good luck. i will let you know how we go when school returns in a week.
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Post by mellowyellow on Jul 13, 2009 9:20:46 GMT -5
How about giving her a type of "template" (for loss of better word) that she can follow? Like a room map?
The best example I can think is when I have my 10 and 11 year old students clean out their desks. I explain that it will be difficult for some of them, and easy for others. I offer any of them, if they want a buddy to help them out. There are some students who always ask for a buddy. I think it is important for us to realize that everyone cleans in a different way. Some people are so paralyzed with the task that they need an extra hand and an extra voice to help out. Other people would rather do it all privately.
I give them a timeline, but tell them that if anyone ends up needing more time, we can make arrangements. This removes pressure, but still stresses that time is important.
I give regular time checks. "You have 7 more minutes".... "You have 5 more minutes... Would anyone like a buddy now?"... etc.
I put out several garbage cans, and borrow some from the next door classroom. I put our paper recycling bin in a central location and add an additional bag for extra. I teach them what goes in recycling and what paper needs to be shredded with confidential information. (We need to remove any names of students on any sheets that are thrown... Even worksheets.)
I give specific locations that I want certain items. "All your notebooks and papers should be on the right side. All your text books on the left. Your pencil case should be in the middle or in the front ledge. If it doesn't fit, put it in your backpack and take out just the equipment you will need for the moment..."... etc. Very specific directions particularly for those students who are lost and don't know how to organize.
I think the most important thing with all of this is that I tell them that I know cleaning and organizing can be a difficult process. I show them my desk, and explain that I will be organizing mine at the same time that they do. I also ask them for suggestions. I ask them if they think there is a better spot to locate the stapler, sharpener, rulers, etc. I ask for their imput because they are living in this environment with me. Not only do they have a sense of ownership, but quite frankly, 10 and 11 year olds have some pretty good ideas.
For people who are finished early, I ask them to offer their services to other friends. I also ask them to pick one area of the classroom that could use some help or organization. I have to let go and trust that they will improve things. They almost always amaze me. I also tell them that if they are brave, they can help me to organize my desk, or bookshelves.
Now, of course, this is in one classroom and not in a bedroom. But I think it would be useful to you because it is our way of having 20-30 individuals coexist in a single room for a large part of a day.
I hope some of these ideas might help or give you further ideas.
P.S. The key for me is being honest with each child and explaining to them about living and cleaning styles. I talk to them about mess, hoarding and squalor. I expose them to those words and concepts, so they can see where they fall in this continuum, and understand that there is hope.
I think my own life would have been a lot different if someone had explained this to me, instead of just telling me to "go and clean your room now!", without any guidance. My parents didn't do wrong. They just did what they knew to do.
ETA: I forgot to mention that I actually show them what I expect using a student desk as an example. I also draw, on the board or overhead projector, a picture or map of how the clean desk should look when it is finished, (for the visual people). I am visual myself, and I find having a picture to refer to helps me to reach my goal. Now as an adult, I don't usually draw the picture anymore, but visualize it in my mind, where I want different things to go. For children, the concrete picture might be more helpful.
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Post by chakraverte on Jul 13, 2009 9:27:39 GMT -5
I really like Eagle's & Mellowyellows suggestion. It empowers her, and empowers you. It is REALLY hard. I struggle with the same things.
You are doing a great job by being open to suggestions. I teach high school and have a five year old stepson. Sharing responsibilities on cleaning is a huge challenge.
You aren't the only one struggling with this problem. My students give me the same excuses for school. At 10, you still have time. At fifteen -- it gets a lot harder.
Modeling is absolutely a great way to start changing behavior.
As for as what you are taking as attacks -- people give advice as they can. Sometimes, people wrap what they mean to be advice in a lot of other stuff. On this board, many of us are hoarders -- we have challenges separating out the good stuff from the bad. I think that goes for giving advice as much as it does for sorting out clutter. I know that not all suggestions are helpful. People are trying to support you from where they are at. They may be confusing their experience with what they mean to say -- but that is their method of explaining things.
In the same way that you have made HUGE progress in your space, take what is good -- and toss the rest. Don't give it space in your head if it is not helpful to you, in the same way that you would not give space to something in your environment if it is not helpful to you.
Hope this helps.
~Chakraverte
Good luck, and keep us updated on progress!
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Post by fragileindustries on Jul 13, 2009 16:01:27 GMT -5
Dear Yearning:
I hope you did not take my separate post about mothers and daughters as being about you. In fact it is about the completely reverse situation. Your post just got me thinking about the complex family dynamics that sometimes affects how we deal with things now. Personally, I really admire you for not only dealing with your own stuff, but trying to help your daughter avoid those patterns. Your analogy to a newly sober person (having been there myself) is excellent. We are fragile but working the best we can -- that's why I picked my ID name as "fragileindustries" -- and we need to recognize our boundaries and triggers. Good for you for trying to stop a situation that could be harmful for you both by working WITH your daughter. I have no kids and have no parenting advice. I do know that for myself, having a VISUAL plan helps a lot, I am a visual person, and perhaps your daughter is the same. See how it works. She may be grateful (probably not so'd you'd notice, but underneath) if she had a map as mellowyellow describes. In any case, my hat's off to you (if I could just find that darn hat!)
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Post by gettingsomewhere on Jul 13, 2009 17:41:21 GMT -5
just wanted to jump in here and say Mellowyellow, what a wonderful teacher you must be. x
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 13, 2009 17:52:06 GMT -5
Yearning,
I'm sorry you felt attacked. I would have felt that way, too.
Please just ignore anything that you feel is insulting, and ignore what does not apply to you. I know it's easier said than done.
I'm tryings lists with my 13-year-old. A master list for the week has some things on there I'm recruiting her to help me with, then I'm going to help her.
Mind you, her room is the only room in the house that needs more than maintenance cleaning. I don't feel I can be too hard on her (though I've tried) because the house was so bad for a long time. So it's tough to find that balance. I emphathize with you.
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