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Post by yearning4order on Jul 9, 2009 22:41:49 GMT -5
I need some suggestions, perspectives, etc.
My daughter has lived around my varying levels of squalor her whole life. Her dad, while not terribly organized does have the ability to whip a house into shape in a day or two without the same level of angst that I do.
On his own, he isn't terribly organized. His new wife I think is very clean & organized. When my daughter is at their house I believe she puts things away as asked, etc.
One thing that has been ongoing is that for weeks I've been asking my daughter to put away her clean clothes. She will try on a variety of things, and the items stay where they are. I ask her to put them away or put them in the dirty clothes if they need cleaning, and she does other things with the time.
Tonight I declined to read our nightly story, and instead told her that she had to put the clothes away or in the dirty clothes.
My room is a complete disaster area--a combined effort from when I had the tv in my bedroom and my daughter would stay in the bedroom and eat things, throw the trash behind my bed, bring her toys in, strew them around, and then of course I would bring my own clothes and strew them around, my own crap and toss it around too.
I feel somehow hypocritical asking her to pick up her clothes in her room when I'm not starting on my room yet (and with good reason, since the rec room will be the staging area for much of the work to come).
I ask her if she wants my help, she says no. What do I do with this? She literally has clothes all over the place. There is plenty of storage space, she just wont' put them away.
My daughter is 10--any ideas are welcome.
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Post by Perfect Mess on Jul 10, 2009 0:41:30 GMT -5
well my daughters are far younger so what i've done with them most likely won't help with yours at age 10. Would your daughter flip if you imposed your help on her and didn't ask?
My kids are little, so I tell them it's time to clean their room and I go in there and give each of them a job. Such as pick up all the shoes and put them in a pile, or pick up all the hangers and hang them in the closet. Any more complicated than that, and it's a battle. One job at a time, and I help too, and before we know it, most of it is cleaned up.
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Blackswan
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Joined: October 2008
Posts: 6,388
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Post by Blackswan on Jul 10, 2009 0:56:58 GMT -5
I would give her a special laundry basket or hamper just for the clean clothes that need hanging up. That will at least contain the clothes, and keep them from getting dirty. Then, she can hang them all up at a later time.
I am also guilty of throwing clothes around, and I know that I personally WILL NOT hang them up no matter what while I am in the middle of trying things on, cause I am just not feeling it. Your daughter is likely to have even less motivation than I do! So I would suggest just working with the situation and containing it.
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 10, 2009 2:46:09 GMT -5
So I would suggest just working with the situation and containing it. I'm sorry, I don't understand. Do you have a specific suggestion or idea that you use with your kids? From what I can see now, there is no working with it. I have asked repeatedly, offered help, etc. and short of what I did tonight (we are not reading story, you will do this before going to sleep, big threat of mama bear starting to roar) it has not been done. There is no containing it. I have provided the two baskets, and clothes are being stashed all over the place. On her bed, on the floor, on a chair, in other baskets where she has also dumped books and magazines. The other problem has become this: the two basket method has led to her telling me she has no clothes to wear, when in fact there are a mountain of clean clothes both in the baskets she has been provided as well as all over her room. While school is out for the summer, during the school year this led to over 50% of the time being late for school because she "didn't have clothes", when in fact they were in her room all along. I am not joking about the tardy rate. There was also a separate *absence* rate caused because of this, because they were days I could not be late for work, and we live 20 minutes drive from her school. There is no bus, no walking there. It is flatly unsafe for a child to bike to, and the bike ride would be grueling for an adult. This is somewhat different from my own squalor in that I know where my clothes are. I have a specific pile, and I work from that. I don't stash my clothes in multiple piles and then put books on top of some of the piles and later suspect that I have no clean clothes. All my dirty clothes get unceremoniously dumped on the bathroom floor (we are working on this with a hamper now of course) so my dirty clothes are always in one place. I've been squalid long enough to have a semblance of a system for finding the basics of my wardrobe--it's a horrible system, but I've never been 30 minutes late for work because I didn't think I had clean clothes, only to realize they were under a pile of magazines. I have, however, been 30 minutes late for work because *my daughter* didn't think she had clean clothes, only to realize later (with my rather unhappy help) that her clean clothes were under a pile of magazines. The suggestion to just impose my help may not be a bad one. Do people have any structures they work with in trying to get this kind of basic organization down? While my survival in squalor pattern may seem obvious to me, is it possible that it's not obvious to her?
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Post by theroyaldump on Jul 10, 2009 7:05:49 GMT -5
I personally like working with a reward system (puts a positive outlook on cleaning up) more that a punishment system (which builds a resentment outlook to cleaning). I like Blackswans idea of giving her her own tools (laundry basket) to use, however I would take that one step further and let her pick out her own tools to give her a feeling of responsibility and ownership of the chore. She could choose her own color and shape of laundry basket or even pick out one of the nylon animal shapes. Get her some new plastic hangers and let her coose the color or colors. As she accomplishes the chores give her points for completing them and then on Saturday day let her spend her points on a movie rental of her choice, a trip to Dariry Queen, a new barrette or other reasonably priced accessory ... you get the idea.
Good luck as I know how hard it can be to motivate a "tweener".
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 10, 2009 7:54:19 GMT -5
I would work with a reward system as well. You're wanting to get her to do something, not take away something because she doesn't. That's a punishment. And how would you like it if someone punished you for your squalor, instead of helping you or being kind about the problem?
I have two girls. They're night and day different, and very close in age. When they were growing up, one always got to a point where she'd clean her own room and make it spotless, without me ever saying a word. The other had an entire floor that you couldn't see because of clothes (and she was a HUGE clothes horse and it got worse in her teen years).
Normally, I closed the door of the second child's room, as I chose my battles carefully. For me, this wasn't one of the battles I wanted to deal with, because she wasn't missing any school at all and it was doing no harm otherwise. But for you, it's clearly doing harm and something has to be done.
There are a couple things that come to mind.
1. I would ask her what SHE thinks will help her. Get her involved. And don't just let her say, "I dunno." Give her examples. "You know what, Susie, Mommy has some real messes going, huh? And I'm trying to work on mine, too. I look around me and what I really would like to see is (fill in blank). How bout you? If you could get allllllll these clothes put away and have a neat room, what do you think it would look like? What do you think could make that happen? I tried laundry baskets, but you don't like those. If I told you that you ONLY had to put dirty clothes in a pile on the left side floor of your closet...mannnnnn, would that be fast to do....could you do that so that you don't even have to see them and we KNOW they're dirty?" And I think theroyaldump's idea of letting her choose hangers is a good one, because you have to start to get some kind of system going. As far as where to put those dirty clothes, I like laundry baskets, but really, all you're looking for is AN ENCLOSED AREA with a boundary.
2. She's 10. Ten year olds don't know much about organization when they have a cyclone. Truly. They may know, "Hey I'd like this to be different, but it's too much and I don't have a clue where to start, so ok, it's staying the way it is." Sound familiar to any of US?
Maybe make it "Susie's Special Room Mother-Daughter Day." This weekend, pick a time from x to x (not too long) and go in there with her favorite drink and a good snack and her favorite music playing. Announce it today, so she'll know what's comin'.
Start with one piece of clothing at a time. Seriously. Hold it up to her. "Clean or dirty, Susie? We're going to put all these here and all those there. Won't this be GREAT when it's done? Remember how we were talking about your room and how neat it'd look?
Put no pressure on her. We don't like it when there's pressure on us. Tell her, "You know, whatever we get done today is fine. We'll get the dirty clothes washed, and then we'll pick another time in a day or two to do some more." If you think it's going well and smooth and fast, keep going this weekend. REWARD HER. Tell her, "Wow, at the end, we get to (fill in blank). Keep stressing that there is a reward for her PATIENCE in both of you getting this all done. Sorting clothes isn't hard work. Having the patience to do it is the really hard work, because it's overwhelming. I'm sitting with a pile right now...yeah, it's overwhelming. But they're getting done TODAY.
3. As you sort clothes, hang the clean on her newly picked/matched hangers. The dirty? Take her to the washer with you. Show her how to do laundry. I never did this with my kids until they were about 15, and it turns out they would have liked to have learned earlier. The key is in making everything less serious. Serious=young kids run away. Don't be a taskmaster. Be MOMMY. Be her pal. I don't advocate being a pal in everything in her life, but I do advocate it for this. You're not saving her from harm but, rather, you're both trying to reach a goal together. And that's the best time to get flies with honey instead of vinegar.
Hope this helps!
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 10, 2009 8:02:18 GMT -5
One other thing...
When you get this done (and you will!), keep a reward system in place for her to keep it straight. She's at a good age for chore charts, only in her case, it can be a chart just for her room and what happened. Were her clothes hung up (let's say by the end of the day--when I come home, my clothes get flung off, too!). Was there a pile of dirties in one place? Did she get to school on time every day?
Your goal is to continually praise the positive. If she did one out of three, maybe it's a lesser reward. But it's something that she didn't do BEFORE now, and that should be rewarded.
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Post by AnnieOkie on Jul 10, 2009 8:26:51 GMT -5
When I decided to tackle my squalor, one of the first things I did was organize my younger son's room. It was horrible and he wouldn't have known where to start himself. He has a bag hanging in his closet where the dirty clothes go. His clean clothes are in the drawers or closet.
I would start with organizing your daughter's room with a place for everything. Show her how and where to put things (some kids literally don't know). If she still won't keep her clothes picked up/put away, maybe you should gather them together and put them away somewhere until she only has a couple of things left and she realizes she will have to take part to keep all of her clothes.
I did this last night with clutter in my living room. There were electronics, games, etc. strewn all over. I had told the boys to pick them up before they went to their Dad's house for the weekend, but they didn't. I boxed them up and they won't see those things for a while and hopefully will learn a lesson from this.
Good luck!
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Post by rubyred on Jul 10, 2009 9:20:45 GMT -5
You might have to stand there and direct her. Tell her it's time to do ____ (whatever you want) and watch her do it. She won' t be happy but she's not listening to you.
Our bedroom is always the messiest room, too, but that's because the adults are responsible for the whole house. That does not make us hypocrites. I believe beyond this, we don't have to explain further to our children.
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Post by skatters on Jul 10, 2009 10:28:42 GMT -5
I *love* paperpilers suggestions.
Once things get cleaned up, perhaps an addition to her bedtime routine is called for. Before reading the bedtime story every night, have her pick her outfit for the next day. Then the two of you can put away the clothes she has left out. Or perhaps one can put away clothes, and the other can read.
I see the night before routine being especially important for the school year. No more tardys because she can't find her clothes.
Good luck!
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 10, 2009 11:33:40 GMT -5
[Our bedroom is always the messiest room, too, but that's because the adults are responsible for the whole house. That does not make us hypocrites. I believe beyond this, we don't have to explain further to our children. ]
You're certainly entitled to your opinion :-) but I disagree. And let me tell you why.
When I was growing up, my mom kept a spotless house (but she wasn't fanatical...it's just the way she kept house). She always encouraged me, nurtured me, helped me. My dad dominated me...I got a lot of "because I'm the parent, and I said so. Just DO IT. You don't know your a-- from a hole in the ground. When you get older, you'll thank me for this." You know who helped me learn? My mom. You know who taught me to fear? My dad.
I think that any time you live in a squalorous household (and are the child of divorce, as my children were) you have to take those things into account as well. We don't owe them any further explanation? Just do it because I said so and I'm boss? I shudder at that. I could not look at my children in all good conscience...with squalor surrounding me...and say to them, "You have to do this because I said so and I'm the adult and don't owe you an explanation, kid." My children weren't things I owned. They were humans who had feelings and bad days and stress, too. And children of divorce have it even more.
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keriamon
New Member
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 61
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Post by keriamon on Jul 10, 2009 12:52:28 GMT -5
This is going to sound really mean, but looking at it from an outsider's point of view (and the fact that my mother did a similar sort of thing to me as a kid) you can't get your own mess in order, so you are using your authority as a parent to make her get hers in order. Rather than dealing with your mess, you're going to make her deal with hers. The secret hope is that at least her room will clean and that you didn't have to clean it. It's passing the buck. Don't ask anyone to do anything you can't or won't do for yourself. Why should your daughter respect your authority on this matter? It's clear to her that you don't know how to clean and organize; why (and how) should she be expected to do so too? Also, where's her role model? Who taught her how to clean? You've taught her it's okay to have a mess, so long as you can find things in a reasonable amount of time. Her idea of a reasonable amount of time and yours differ, but if you're okay with the state you are living in, why shouldn't she be okay with hers? A lot of parents, I think, assume kids know how to clean, but you don't know how to do it at your age; why should she? Cleaning up a big mess is about prioritizing. You have to have a game plan. You also have to have an obtainable goal--break things down into manageable chunks. A lot of people never even know where to start, or how to progress. Your daughter's room isn't the problem here; it's the mess in the entire house. I suggest that you worry about the rest of the house before you worry about her room. If her room was the only tidy room in the house, you'd hardly feel better because you don't live in her room; you have to live in the mess that's in all the other rooms. The two of you, together, need to work on the rest of the house. Nicely ask her to help you clean up the house (like Paper said, being nice and working as a team earns more respect and help than someone who just orders someone else around). Set an obtainable goal, like we're going to get all the dishes washed and put away, and then reward yourselves afterwards--make a pizza, go to MacDonald's, get an ice cream, go see a movie--whatever is a treat for the two of you and you can afford. You and she can both look forward to completing a chore because you know that you can have something pleasant when you're done. It's like going to work; you go to work so you can get a paycheck when you're done, right? Give yourselves a "paycheck" when you've done your housework too. Having a buddy will, I think, help you get through this stuff and she'll start learning how to break down big jobs into smaller, manageable ones (a lesson that's SO good for schoolwork and other things beside cleaning). With any luck, she'll spontaneously clean up her room on her own; if the rest of the house looks and feels great, she will probably get tired of living in a bedroom that's a mess. Even if she doesn't, when the common areas of the house are clean, tackle her room, with or without her help. FlyLady shared a story from a woman once that has stuck in my mind. This woman admitted that she had been yelling at her young son to clean his room for ages. Finally she told herself, "If it means that much to ME for it to be clean, then *I* should clean it." She went in and set to work. Two hours later she sat down on the bed and cried because the room wasn't a bit cleaner. She realized that if she was lost on how to get it tidy, there was no hope that her son could do it; she had been setting him an impossible task and yelling at him and punishing him when he couldn't get it done. She eventually regrouped and talked with her son after he came home from school. They agreed to go through the room together and get rid of the toys he didn't want to play with anymore, the clothes he had outgrown, etc. When they were down to what was wanted, she went out and bought some shelving and buckets and they sat down and labeled the buckets and sorted the toys--like multiple block sets--into the correct bucket, then they put them on the shelves. Now her son knows that cleaning up his room means putting each toy back in its bucket and clothes in the closet. Each and every item has a home, and cleaning up merely means putting things back in their home. She's not had any problems with him keeping his room clean ever since. So, even though, from the doorway, it looks quite obvious that your daugher's room could be cleaned up in an hour quite easily, you may find, like the other mother did, that when YOU actually try and tackle it, it's not easy at all. That's why I encourage you to try your hand at it; you may suddenly understand your daughter's lack of progress quite quickly. I also suggest www.flylady.net. Her information is all free, and she helps you break big chores into smaller ones and get into routines which will help you clean up and stay cleaned up. She also talks a lot about dealing with children, because she too was once a single mom with a couple of children and a messy house. Her squalor and personal life got so bad at one point, she had a nervous breakdown and had to go into the hospital, so she's not a born-organized person preaching on how easy it is and that you're just *** if you don't do it; she's been there, done that; she understands. Come to think of it, your daughter is probably a lot like my husband. If I make a small mess (like I leave a dish in the sink), he will make a bigger one (like leave a bunch of dishes in the sink). But when I have the house cleaned up, he cleans up after himself most of the time--simply because it looks so nice he hates to mess it up; but when it's a mess, what's a little more going to hurt? I've had to learn that I can't expect him to clean up after himself unless I've cleaned up after myself perfectly. Mind you, he's still a messy person by nature, so I always have to pick up after him, but I have to do a lot less of that if I've picked up my own stuff first.
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Post by AnnieOkie on Jul 10, 2009 12:57:28 GMT -5
Yearningfororder-I'm not sure where you are on your journey to de-squalor. When I de-squalored my son's room, it and the bathroom were the only rooms in the house that were straight. My suggestion to start in your daughter's room is so she can see instant results in your journey and begin to acquire new habits. I don't see anything wrong with starting here. As you work on the rest of your home (and eventually get to your bedroom), she will see you working to restore order to the entire home. My bedroom has been on the bottom of the list, but I still expect my sons to help me maintain what I have done for the rest of the house. You have good intentions on getting your daughter to join in and I know you will have great success. **Edited to add: I just looked again at your pics and see you are making some great progress! Keep up the good work!**
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Post by eagle on Jul 10, 2009 13:25:19 GMT -5
Yearning, I suggest you tell your daughter, "We're going to put your clothes away now" and then work with her side-by-side to put them away. Don't do it for her, but don't expect her to do it alone. Model the behavior you want.
Pick something up and ask, "Is this clean or dirty?" If she say's, "Dirty," then put the first one into the dirty clothes hamper (I hope she has one in her room) yourself. But with the next one, hand it to her and say, "Here, would you please put it in the dirty clothes hamper?"
If she says, "Clean, I was just trying it on," then reach for a hanger and put it onto the hanger and into the closet. But with the next item she answers "Clean" to, hand it to her and ask if she would "Please hang it in the closet."
She might say "I don't know", then say, "Well then, let's take a closer look (or sniff)" and show her how to determine if it's clean or dirty. Then demonstrate by modeling the behavior.
Do all of this with a kind and respsectful tone of voice and attitude. No berating yourself or your daughter. Just working together to get a job done.
I suggest you do this together each night for at least a week. Then one day, morning, afternoon, or evening, ask her if she would go and put away her clothes, but don't go help her. Go in afterward and see how she did alone. If she did anything at all, praise her for what she did. If she left anything undone or did nothing at all, offer to help her finish. But again, be kind and pleasant. She is still learning.
You also mentioned that your room looks a mess also, so I would also suggest that you spend a few minutes each day cleaning up in there also. Not with your daughter's help, but by yourself. It is your room, you are the adult. Whatever mess she made in there you gave her permission to make. So cleaning it up alone is reasonable. And you will be modeling a behavior you want her to learn, to clean up on a daily basis.
In future, however, you need to be clear with her that she no longer has permission to make a mess in your room. And that she no longer has permission to eat in any other room than ____ (fill in the blanks.) And that she no longer has permission to toss trash anywhere else but the trash can. I wouldn't suggest bombarding her with all these rules all at one time, but even if you do, make sure you let her know it is equal, in that both of you will have to obey these rules.
You will also have to provide the tools to make this easier for her. Make sure she has a dirty clothes hamper (or laundry basket or whatever you want her to use for dirty clothes). Make sure there's a waste basket in every room. And gently remind her whenever you see her tossing trash anywhere else to pick it up and put it into the trash. And demonstate the behaviors you want from her by doing them yourself.
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Post by puppybox on Jul 10, 2009 13:37:19 GMT -5
I really agree with eagle.
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