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Post by serenitynow on Dec 2, 2009 12:19:33 GMT -5
You're right, gottaproblem! I didn't register that one. I guess I had surpassed my disgust limit (Faces respectfully removed by me. They did not belong here.)
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Post by wendy on Dec 2, 2009 14:32:29 GMT -5
From Wendy with her Ph.D. in clinical psychology hat on:
This lady is seriously mentally ill, there's no doubt about that. But I wouldn't venture to diagnose her from video clips which were less than an hour long.
People should be aware, however, that there are many causes of dementia other than Alzheimer's, and that the symptoms and course of these dementias are different. Personally, I'd wager that this lady qualifies for several diagnoses, including some form of dementia. She should not be living alone-- she should be in a nursing home or mental institution.
If A&E really wants to do a show about Hoarders, I think this lady should not have been selected-- she has so many mental deficits which feed into her problems that the show in no way illuminates what "hoarding" is all about.
My personal reaction was one of sadness and horror, not only about her situation and the impact it had on her children and others, but about the fact that it is unlikely that she will ever receive the kind of help she really needs. It was a bit shocking to me that the professionals on this episode did not recognize that her situation was far, far beyond a "hoarding" problem and that steps needed to be taken to remove her from the home, for her own safety. The inability of these professionals to recognize extremely serious mental pathology will also negatively imact her children, who still have the impression that their mother's issue is "hoarding" and that she just didn't care enough about them to do anything about it. It is far more likely that their mother suffered some sort of internal or external brain trauma which led to an early-onset dementia and snuffed out her rational and emotional capacities like a candle. The sad thing is that if they knew this and could understand what happened in light of whatever it was that caused such a profound change in their mother's ability to function, they would undoubtedly feel less unloved and abandoned.
I think A&E did a terrible job on this one.
Wendy
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Dec 2, 2009 15:47:19 GMT -5
I don't have a Ph.D in psychology, but this lady's behavior completely mirrored that of the mother of a friend of mine in high school. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her late 30s (which would have been right around the age "Augustine" gave birth to "Jason," hence the difference between his older sister's memories of their mom and his own) and she changed so completely, it was as if an alien had taken over her body. She went from being one of the sweetest and prettiest women I had ever met to a paranoid, self-centered shrew who would go for days on end without bathing or even combing her hair. When her husband finally told her he was divorcing her, she didn't even blink and simply asked when he and the girls were "getting the h*ll out of her house." Wendy is completely right about these kids needing to know what's really wrong with their mom. My friend and her younger sister had a difficult time dealing with the change in their mom even knowing what was wrong with her. They knew it was something she couldn't control and that they would have to learn to accept her as she was. I can't imagine what it would be like to think that your mother could change her behavior if she wanted and simply didn't care enough not to do so. I hope next week's show features someone who truly has a problem with real hoarding and not simply someone who could be a case study in a psych course.
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Post by procrastinator on Dec 2, 2009 17:05:43 GMT -5
The son is posting at TWOP. From what he's saying, my guess is Augustine suffered from depression along with the hoarding. I really liked the one person per hour format, but I don't know if they're keeping it for the whole season.
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Post by serenitynow on Dec 2, 2009 20:08:25 GMT -5
I agree with you,Wendy, about the horror of this woman not getting the help she needs and the severe depression as well as mental problems. They just skimmed over the teeth part. That said, she was very manipulative and DID react- but in consistently self centered, OTHER blaming ways. To me that showed she had some control over her thought processes..plus that heavy breathing when confronted on her behavior which just as suddenly abated. I also agree that this was a very poor example of hoarding. sn
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Post by kadymae on Dec 2, 2009 21:26:53 GMT -5
In her "Melusine" series of fantasy novels, Sarah Monette introduces (and explores) a concept she calls "Mikkary".
Mikkary is misery, and despair, and madness, and dankness, and darkness to the point where it's almost palpable.
Augustine's house was a nexus of Mikkary. I could feel it coming through my TV.
OCD? Possibly. But also decades of depression. And possibly some Schizoaffective disorder.
And, for all the ways in which Augustine compounded her problems by always making it somebody else's fault, I felt so sorry for her when it was revealed that Jason's father had walked out and never come back when she revealed she was pregnant.
I think she felt so utterly thrown away by the callousness of that, that she died that day -- only her body hasn't caught up yet.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Dec 2, 2009 21:44:18 GMT -5
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Kadymae,
Your post struck a chord in me.
Behind every person with problems, there is a human being with a story.
Thank you for posting.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Dec 2, 2009 22:11:57 GMT -5
- During the first "Season" (mini-season?) of "Hoarders" which was six episodes from mid-August through end of September, 2009 ... we had lots of discussions here at SOS. Many threads, some long, some short.
What came up for me personally was that each person being featured in the episode had a story. And most of the story was never shown on TV.
The TV crew is at the home for 3-4 long days filming. Yet less than an hour is actually broadcast.
And ... the scenes that are broadcast show the hoarder, family, professional organizer, and hauling crew ... as all having stern, upset, or callous facial expressions. The real breakthrough compassionate scenes weren't shown on TV. Why? Because it's a show that tries to make everything "shocking".
For example, the first episode was Jennifer/Ron and Jill. Broadcast scenes showing Geralin Thomas (the organizer) showed her with a stern expression. Yet people who have personally met her say she's not like that at all. Geralin is very warm and caring.
There was a scene shown with a child's playhouse being tossed into the dumpster or hauling truck, and the horrified child crying hysterically.
Posts by Jennifer (the mother of the child) on the A&E forum say that what actually happened was ... the playhouse was falling apart. It had holes in it full of rainwater. Mosquitoes were breeding in it. Furthermore, it was a used item that she had found long ago, and never was of good quality. It was totally falling apart and unsafe by the time the TV crew came. She hadn't mentioned to her child that her plan was to have the haulers discard it, so the child was briefly upset. But then she explained to the child and he understood. Furthermore, the children were much happier afterwards because their home was clean and they could have friends over for sleepovers.
That's what happened. But all you saw on TV was a brightly colored playhouse being tossed into a dumpster/truck, the hauling service worker smiling, and a child screaming in agony. Scenes cut and spliced together for broadcast.
We don't really know the FULL picture of any of the households being shown on Hoarders. All we see are the short clips that edited into the broadcast version.
I'll bet that most of the broadcast episodes will continue to focus on disparagement, frustration, and arguments. And they'll continue to omit the more transformational moments.
One more point ... There are links at A&E to various sites dealing with hoarding ... and some of them eventually link to sites that link to SOS.
There may be some participants in past, present, or future episodes READING here at SOS right now.
Isn't here at SOS a place where SOME of the participants might find help?
I will continue to maintain my personal policy of speaking of every participant on the show with respect, as if he/she were reading.
I'm not suggesting that we censor our comments. Nor am I suggesting that we condone dysfunction.
But I am suggesting that we speak of everyone with dignity.
NOTE: ... I'm not trying to imply that anybody is being disrespectful. So my comment isn't directed at anybody in particular.
I'm just affirming how I feel. And how I wish we could be.
Editing to add: Furthermore, family members might be reading here!
A few posts before mine in this thread, someone said that the Augustine's son is posting at the TWOP forum (a television critique forum, which has a section for the Hoarders series). People at TWOP are aware of SOS, and it won't be long until he sees this thread.
If you were a Hoarders participant, or a family member, and came to SOS, how would you feel reading this thread?
Wouldn't you want a place where squalorers could come and be loved and taught new skills?
Again, I'm not condoning dysfunction. Just offering something to consider. -
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Post by disarray on Dec 3, 2009 0:03:19 GMT -5
I honestly didn't think about Augustine having any other major mental disorders while watching the episode. (Although it could be true. I don't know. It's just not something that occurred to me while watching.)
I noticed a lot of the people in the show made a big deal about her "restricted affect" (a good term that howardsgirlfriend used.) Personally, I went through a depressed period in high school where I showed very little emotion. So her lack of emotion didn't seem odd to me at all. People are different. It could be caused by depression, or it could just be her personality.
Anyway, as for the show itself, like others, I liked that they focused on one person instead of two. That was helpful. Maybe the shows producers are taking note of viewers critiques.
Mainly though, I found it very interesting that they were running out of time to clean the house. As those of us who watched the last season know, they give the people who hoard a very short amount of time to get their house in order. Also they always make it seem like it's the hoarders fault if things aren't cleaned up in time. It usually goes something like, "The junk collectors are there to clean up her house, but will she let them do it!" It makes it seem like the responsibility is all on the hoarder's to "let" them, and if they don't "let" them clean it, then it's the hoarder's failure.
On this particular show, she definitely let them. Yet, they barely got it cleaned in the time allotted. They seemed to be racing against the clock, and her house wasn't even as big as some of the past houses. I think this shows how ridiculous A&E's time schedule is. Even if someone hardly argues about anything and has a fairly small house, they still can barely finish it in time! How do they expect other hoarders who have larger houses and more difficulty discarding things to finish in that same time period? This episode revealed the obvious time flaw within the series. I know there's an outside time restriction usually involved in these shows (the city wants it cleaned up within so many days, yada, yada), but A&E seems to restrict things even more just to add drama. These things can't be done within such a short period of time. It's ridiculous.
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Post by moggyfan on Dec 3, 2009 0:19:08 GMT -5
Furthermore, family members might be reading here! A few posts before mine in this thread, someone said that the Augustine's son is posting at the TWOP forum (a television critique forum, which has a section for the Hoarders series). People at TWOP are aware of SOS, and it won't be long until he sees this thread. If you were a Hoarders participant, or a family member, and came to SOS, how would you feel reading this thread? Wouldn't you want a place where squalorers could come and be loved and taught new skills? Again, I'm not condoning dysfunction. Just offering something to consider.
I think when people choose to disclose their private lives/problems on a national entertainment network (and make no mistake about it: this is entertainment for the masses, and in my opinion, sick entertainment), they should not be very surprised when others who watch these programs comment on them. Do we honestly believe people watch shows like this to "learn"? I am frankly appalled at our apparently inexhaustible national appetite for fresh "dysfunction" to dissect. Andy Warhol was right.
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Post by moonglow on Dec 3, 2009 0:34:28 GMT -5
Thank you Lioness, for a sensitive and compassionate post.
Yes, TV shows will sensationalize where they can and go for the shock value. Yes, we see and know almost nothing of the "back story". I sensed lots of anger and conflict between the woman and her family, and it was clear that this had gone on for years. I took her to be emotionally shut down - feeling cornered, attacked, overwhelmed, exposed, helpless, resistant, and/or angry. In need of help, yes.
Be we "hoarders" or "messies" or whatever label you want to put on us, none of our issues are black and white - none of us are exactly the same although we have similarities - we are complex beings with a continuum of characteristics that describe us. Many of us have problems of one kind or another - physical disabilities, emotional baggage, or "mental illness" (I hate that expression) including depression, bipolar disorder etc etc etc. Our behaviors have multiple origins, which is why one solution does not fit all.
We also, being humans, love to separate ourselves from the "really bad ones". It is easier and less painful to quickly say, "I'm not like that" or "She's not one of us" or "She has serious problems, she's not a hoarder".
I hope that I am not offending anyone, I was just surprised by some of the comments on this thread. I am pretty sure that if this woman was posting here, she would have received a vastly different response....
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Post by serenitynow on Dec 3, 2009 1:45:21 GMT -5
It was interesting to read Jasons (Augustines son) comments on the situation. He said that his Mom was living with his father, who dumped her when she found out she was pregnant. His mom was very careful about her appearance well into her 50s. She was a hard worker, working 7 days a week mowing lawns. She admitted that her "groaning sounds were an affectation" and consistently blames others for her problems. She apparently was always like that and had really come down very hard on his sister about a lost paper which his sister later found in the bathroom. Susan was furious and wanted to confront her mom then and there but the crew made her wait until they got the cameras! Her mom then went so far as to say there must have been 2 copies of this paper! People are very sympathetic to him and his sister. The show is paying to fix her home and to get her help. He gives it about a 30% chance. I guess my point is that Augustine is not the kind of person to write to this board about help and support. And what was said here is consistent with his views of his mom. He also addresses the issue of hoarding, insisting that his mom is indeed a hoarder. I can see your point about treating people with dignity, however this mother showed minimal appreciation for all done for her (her son raves about the helpers, saying he still tears up thinking about them) and I don't feel it's remiss to comment about what was blatantly and repetitively apparent on the show. Hoarders come in all shapes and sizes and our board has been very caring to those who open up here and share their stories. I wonder,though, how we would respond if someone wrote ," My place is stage 5 squalor and recently a crew of workers shoveled it out. I let them do it and sat on the porch eating and watching while they worked their butts off. My son was removed from the house and was raised by my daughter. They have helped clean and the state has been called in. Flattened dead cats have been discovered. None of this is my doing. The men from Got Junk pitched in their own money to buy me a new chair but it wasn't a recliner. I wish the organizer would quit telling me to express my thanks." Misc, what do you think? serenitynow, respecting others opinions
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Dec 3, 2009 2:38:39 GMT -5
Furthermore, family members might be reading here! A few posts before mine in this thread, someone said that the Augustine's son is posting at the TWOP forum (a television critique forum, which has a section for the Hoarders series). People at TWOP are aware of SOS, and it won't be long until he sees this thread. If you were a Hoarders participant, or a family member, and came to SOS, how would you feel reading this thread? Wouldn't you want a place where squalorers could come and be loved and taught new skills? Again, I'm not condoning dysfunction. Just offering something to consider.
I think when people choose to disclose their private lives/problems on a national entertainment network (and make no mistake about it: this is entertainment for the masses, and in my opinion, sick entertainment), they should not be very surprised when others who watch these programs comment on them. Do we honestly believe people watch shows like this to "learn"? I am frankly appalled at our apparently inexhaustible national appetite for fresh "dysfunction" to dissect. Andy Warhol was right. I agree with everything Moggyfan wrote. Even though I have learned a few things about myself and my own hoarding issues from watching these shows, I realize 99% of A&E's audience are not watching to learn anything. To them, it's simply the reality train wreck of the week. I do entertainment analysis for a living; trust me, you don't want to hear what most of the general public thinks about this issue. Sometimes, it's all I can do to not scream, throw sharp things, or cry when I read the surveys and opinion polls that come across my desk. I also wholeheartedly agree with Wendy's earlier post: My personal reaction was one of sadness and horror, not only about her situation and the impact it had on her children and others, but about the fact that it is unlikely that she will ever receive the kind of help she really needs. It was a bit shocking to me that the professionals on this episode did not recognize that her situation was far, far beyond a "hoarding" problem and that steps needed to be taken to remove her from the home, for her own safety. The inability of these professionals to recognize extremely serious mental pathology will also negatively imact her children, who still have the impression that their mother's issue is "hoarding" and that she just didn't care enough about them to do anything about it. It is far more likely that their mother suffered some sort of internal or external brain trauma which led to an early-onset dementia and snuffed out her rational and emotional capacities like a candle. The sad thing is that if they knew this and could understand what happened in light of whatever it was that caused such a profound change in their mother's ability to function, they would undoubtedly feel less unloved and abandoned. Personally, I think any family members that found their way to our board would probably have far harsher things to say about their hoarding relative than any of us would ever dream of saying. No one has said anything uncalled for or unkind. We've simply said we felt this lady had problems that went far beyond the condition of her home, problems that Wendy rightly observed were not commented on or dealt with by the professionals that were present, much to the detriment of both this woman and especially her children. I just read Serenity's post and as usual, she has a great way with words. I really loved her closing paragraph: I guess my point is that Augustine is not the kind of person to write to this board about help and support. And what was said here is consistent with his views of his mom. He also addresses the issue of hoarding, insisting that his mom is indeed a hoarder.
I can see your point about treating people with dignity, however this mother showed minimal appreciation for all done for her (her son raves about the helpers, saying he still tears up thinking about them) and I don't feel it's remiss to comment about what was blatantly and repetitively apparent on the show.
Hoarders come in all shapes and sizes and our board has been very caring to those who open up here and share their stories.
I wonder,though, how we would respond if someone wrote ," My place is stage 5 squalor and recently a crew of workers shoveled it out. I let them do it and sat on the porch eating and watching while they worked their butts off. My son was removed from the house and was raised by my daughter. They have helped clean and the state has been called in. Flattened dead cats have been discovered. None of this is my doing. The men from Got Junk pitched in their own money to buy me a new chair but it wasn't a recliner. I wish the organizer would quit telling me to express my thanks." I do not believe that anyone on this board would ever want to intentionally hurt someone else. I think we've all been hurt enough by the people in our own lives, so we wouldn't want to do it to someone else. However, I do believe we all need a place where we can openly discuss how we feel about all the issues surrounding clutter, hoarding, squalor, etc., including how we see our problems being portrayed in the media.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Dec 3, 2009 4:16:56 GMT -5
- I stand by what I said. SOS is not designed to "enable" dysfunctional behaviors. But SOS is supposed to be a loving place. There is a way to speak about people with compassion. Without using the word "disgust". If someone posted: " What we saw on TV was a woman who didn't appear to be engaged in what was happening, or grateful for it. However, we really don't know what was happening inside her. It's clear she has lots of issues, perhaps with mental health. I hope that she gets the help that she needs for whatever trauma contributed to her current way of being. I feel bad for her family." ... I would have no problem with that. Or if someone posted " I was uncomfortable watching some of her irritating behavior. I wonder what the real woman is like underneath all of her defenses? I hope she can find help to discover that, and someday become her true self." ... I would have no problem with that. Or if someone posted " I was upset with how she acted, but I have compassion for her, ... and I hope that she can find healing, self-respect, and whatever therapy she needs to grow." ... I would have no problem with that. Squalor is BAD. We don't want to enable or condone it. We want to step OUT of the squalor. I just feel uncomfortable with slamming human beings, or extensive references to the word "disgust" about a human being. I think we can analyze some of her issues, based on the very LIMITED scenes we were shown. But ... I don't want to sit in judgment on any human being. There's a way to gently discuss the hard facts, but still affirm compassion within a post. I wrote more about all of this on another thread ... it comes from a discussion in early 2008 about a different TV show. Link: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2505-
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Post by canna on Dec 3, 2009 6:19:17 GMT -5
The episode with Augustine was one of the most disturbing that was shown on A&E Hoarders series.
It was sad when Augustine mentioned her mother. Her mother had her out of wedlock, and told her many times when she was growing up that she wished she never had her. She felt unwanted and unloved. That alone probably had a lot to do with how she felt about herself most of her life. Maybe she was just emotionally stunned by that rejection, not her fault, probably felt very much alone, confused, and it must have played a big part in how she saw things. She had a lot of the old family pictures around, even of her mother.
She of course clearly needs a lot of help beyond just the cleanup. I thought it was very nice when the Junk crew bought her that nice couch chair. I really think that her son and daughter should see her more often.
To me, she was grateful for all the help. She did show it, in her own way.
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