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Post by puppybox on Mar 22, 2018 14:38:28 GMT -5
Chris i am happy you are unheartbroken and plan to take in Willy.
Diane i don't agree with your force the cat to endure forced captivity and get used to it thru shock approach. however i am not a cat expert. still, i don't think that's a great approach for any living thing unless the alternative is very dangerous and involves more suffering, comparatively. the idea that letting a cat trying to get out to where he feels safe is "rewarding bad behaviour" doesn't make sense to me. safety is a need. positive reinforcement has been proven to work in all species. even in trees. if the tree is making a limb grow over the power line, when you lop it off it will keep growing back over and over again. if you provided a path to sunlight in another direction it would cHOOSE to go the alternate way and you wouldnt have to violently chop bits off it. force is the least effective path to anything and envolves the most suffering. instead of punishing a child for not being able to play the level 7 peice on the piano over and over until he gets it right is bizarre when you can jsut start them off at level one and proceed up to level 7 with stickers on each peice completed.
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Post by DustyD on Mar 22, 2018 15:24:18 GMT -5
Yikes, I'm not going to touch that cat discussion with a ten-foot pole!
I'm having some progress.
I found an old pair of jeans I'd been waiting to fit into again. Now I can get the top button closed, but they're way too big around the hips and thighs, and way too long. They are going.
I used to have plenty of boxes from deliveries sitting around all the time--and now that I need one to send something back, I don't have any! So my return will have to wait. But actually, it's kind of a good thing.
Now that DH is up from his nap, I can get into the under-bed bins...
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 15:46:13 GMT -5
unless the alternative is very dangerous
And here's the magic phrase--I think any cat outdoors is in danger, very real danger, and it's just a matter of time until they are either hit by a car, attacked by an animal, pick up a deadly disease, or worse--I think it's urgently important to keep cats inside.
During my years at the shelter, I saw over and over again how people created their own problems with their cats, usually by inadvertently using intermittent response. If an animal does something and gets a reward every single time, they learn to repeat the behavior--then if the reward stops, they stop the behavior very quickly. However, if they only get an intermittent reward, if they only get a treat every random fourth or sixth or whatever time they do the behavior--they still learn the behavior. But--once you stop the reward, they will continue trying to earn the reward for a long, long time--because they remember that there were times there was no reward, but eventually one would be offered.
What this means in a practical sense is--people would tell us their cat just could not be happy living inside, so they decided the cat was an "indoor, outdoor" cat. As though that was an actual kind of cat, rather than a designation they gave to their cat because they didn't want to do what was necessary to keep the cat inside. What they would start out doing is saying, okay, the cat can't go out. The cat, if previously used to going out, would cry at the door, scratch at the windows, whatever. So the person would put up with the crying for several minutes, or maybe they would put up with it today, but when the cat starts crying tomorrow and kept crying, they would get tired of it and say "oh okay, you're driving me crazy" and they'd open the door. If they repeated this cycle for a few times, the cat would keep crying for DAYS on end, because they've taught the cat that you have to keep crying for a very long time, but that eventually you would get your way. Hence, the cat would be let out. And sooner or later, something terrible happens to the cat. I suppose there are a few cats that live to a ripe old age while being let in and out, but they're few and far between.
So, you might think that for a cat born outside, letting it in for longer and longer periods of time will eventually result in a cat that likes being indoors and will never want to go out--but it doesn't work that way--at least, most of the time it doesn't--they will continue to want to go out forever. So if there has to come a time when you say no, and mean no, you might as well do it at the beginning.
A cat that's already friendly to humans really does get used to being indoors really fast, provided they're not let out AT ALL. Especially a cat like Willy--he's young, and he's already friendly. It's just habit that he wants to be outside--he can just as easily learn the habit of being inside--with people who love him, feed him, provide entertainment...and after a while the urge to go outside will diminish or go away completely--but only if he isn't let out at all. Some cats probably would always take the opportunity to go outside if it's provided--but just because they want to, isn't reason to do it. I'm sure a 2 year old child would run into the street if they were allowed to--but no one would say "well, she really WANTS to run into the street, I'd rather she had a short happy life, doing what she wants to do, instead of stopping her natural behavior..."
There are some conflicting views in the humane community about totally feral cats--meaning cats over the age of 2 or 3 who have NEVER had any contact with a human. Some people feel that even if there's indoor space for them, the adjustment period is long and hard, and some cats never become comfortable around people. Those folks advocate for TNR for the most feral cats, figuring that since homes are limited, try to get friendlier cats in homes instead. I see the point, I don't totally agree because I've seen lots of feral cats adjust to people and learn to love people, but I have worked with the most feral of cats and I at least see the point. But for a young, already friendly cat, the short period of being uneasy or impatient or even afraid inside is well worth keeping the cat safe for the rest of its life. There isn't a kinder way of doing it.
letting a cat trying to get out to where he feels safe is "rewarding bad behaviour" doesn't make sense to me.
I didn't say it was BAD behavior, I don't think any behavior by animals is bad, that's a human way of looking at it, as it affects US. I said it rewarded the behavior of trying to get out, which is the behavior we want to extinguish--not because it's bad on the part of the cat, but because it will put the cat in danger if it succeeds. That's why I suggested a hiding place, so the cat could hide and feel safer if needed.
positive reinforcement has been proven to work in all species
Of course! And positive reinforcement in this case includes food, treats, attention, petting (if the cats wants petting). Letting the cat out when he wants to go out isn't positive reinforcement in learning to stay inside. It's positive reinforcement in learning how to teach their people to let them outside!
I guess this very long post is proof that you can take the shelter worker out of the shelter, but she never stops being a shelter worker...this opinion is the result of 30 plus years working at a (mostly) cat shelter, one that took in all kinds of stray cats--friendly, feral, healthy, sick and injured.
Anyway, I finished lunch and reading, so it's time to get working again.
TO DO:
Clean up from lunch Quick call to my sister, to let her know what's going on with the bank stuff 10 minutes working in the second BR
Diane
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 15:47:38 GMT -5
Ha ha dusty, it's okay, we are all of differing opinions--that's why we discuss things.
Congrats on the too big jeans--it sounds like you're doing great on the weight loss. And the decluttering!
Diane
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 16:21:16 GMT -5
Okay, now I have to make an emergency trip out to the recycling dumpster--right this minute.
Diane
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 16:44:51 GMT -5
Phew! I had a stack of magazines over a foot high that I've been saving for many years, a few months ago I decided I'd look through them again and put them out in the little libraries after looking through them again a few at a time. But, the first few I put out there sat for a while and although they were eventually taken, I don't think there's a lot of demand. So when I went in the room today I saw them and suddenly thought--I'll recycle them. Then I wavered, so I decided I would take them right out, right now. And I did.
I haven't called my sister yet, I decided to wait til she called because we can't do the next step in banking right now anyway.
Next:
10 minutes on books 10 more minutes in 2nd BR
Diane
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 17:32:59 GMT -5
Wow, less than 30 minutes in the 2nd BR and it already looks so much better. This room was looking really good several months ago and then I messed it up, but I guess I messed it up mainly because I started purging more stuff--so maybe unavoidable.
Next:
Check for any plants that need watering Clean parakeet cage PEEP DR table
Diane
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Post by DustyD on Mar 22, 2018 17:49:28 GMT -5
Diane, congratulations on purging those magazines!
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 18:18:32 GMT -5
Thanks dusty, I felt like I had to get them out right away. Sometimes I move things towards my back door as I'm thinking about getting rid of them, and I've been known to take things back from the back door. But once they're in the alley, I don't ever take them back.
I also found 3 cards that were sent to my parents when they got married. They're cute cards from the early 1940s, and I've kept them all this time. I think I'm going to let them go. I don't even recognize the names signed on 2 of the cards, and the 3rd name I just recognize as friends of my parents from a very long time ago. Just out of curiosity I think I'll ask my sister if she recognizes the names, and then I'll put them in the recycle bin.
I had to call the cable company a little while ago because I couldn't access my email--it kept telling me my username and password were wrong when I KNOW they were correct. I clicked on the button saying I forgot my username and it asked me for my account number, and it said that was wrong too, even though I had the bill in my hand. Amazingly I got right through to someone who told me they were having a problem and it should be corrected in an hour. At least it's not my computer, I can wait a while if it's a company problem and they're working on it.
Next:
Do some stretching Wash cat food dishes Wash human dishes
Diane
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Post by sue5000 on Mar 22, 2018 18:20:22 GMT -5
Diane, I was on the fence, but your long post makes a lot of sense to me! 👍😽
Spent 2 hours with my dad this afternoon. Trimmed his sideburns and eyebrows. ✂
My mom has shingles. 😞
And, she fell yesterday. 😦
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Post by sue5000 on Mar 22, 2018 18:23:24 GMT -5
Haha Diane 😉 you read my mind. I was going to suggest you give/show those cards to your sister. ☺
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 19:11:23 GMT -5
My mom has shingles.
And, she fell yesterday.
Oh no sue, I hear shingles is so painful! And now she's probably bruised from the fall? Looks like you'll probably have to be visiting her as well as your dad.
I have not finished my list, my sister called and we talked for a long time--she sounded really good today--more upbeat and joking around. She still hasn't gotten her couch...she called the company and yelled at them and supposedly it's coming Saturday--and they're giving her a $50 gift card for the inconvenience. Luckily this company sells other things besides furniture because she's never buying anything from them that would involve delivery again, even with a gift card.
I'm going to finish my list, and then have dinner. This day is going by too fast!
Diane
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Post by sue5000 on Mar 22, 2018 19:23:15 GMT -5
Wow. That couch was on its way a week ago! Did they give her any explanation as to what happened??
Maybe they delivered it to the wrong address... 😕 and someone else got a free couch! 😶
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Post by dtesposito on Mar 22, 2018 19:29:43 GMT -5
Sue, after the fiasco on Saturday (someone telling her they were on their way and then never showing up) they said it would come on Wednesday. When I asked about it today, she said "I can't even talk about it it's so annoying, I'll tell you the whole story some time" and said that now it's supposed to come Saturday. And that she got a $50 gift card out of them! So I don't know what happened, but I would never buy anything from that store that needed to be delivered!
Diane
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Post by puppybox on Mar 22, 2018 19:59:50 GMT -5
Diane, you're significantly misusing/misunderstanding the terminology of behaviourism, and being dismissive of cc/ds due to an admitted prejudgement of all situations, so it's pointless to discuss it. which i have concluded in the spirit of agree to disagree. ***
i finished walking dogs, found a credit card and tried to return it but failed. i eventually called the company and they cancelled it and ordered the person a new one.
having my bike back again and the conditions better meant i was able to go to the store to buy a new wireless mouse. felt guilty about electronic waste but it was kind of necessary. i talked to the salesguy about hooking up a thing to a thing so i got some useful info. i was tempted by a few things while out and about (food) so that's bad.
oh, i saw my ex-boyfriend, in passing while on my bike. the one who messed with my head, though not totally on purpose, more to protect his own insanity, which is understandable but still cowardly and selfish. i was riding the bike he fixed up and probably thinks he gave me. he did not give it to me. i paid for it. it makes me very very very irritated that he probably felt all pleased i was riding it. the self-important delusional man that he is, i can't stand it. and i did not look my best, as is always the case, right? i hope he gets a flat tire.
to do: laundry. forgotten last night. buy juice? sliced meat? maybe neither? ooh-answer phone...
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