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Post by eatingbonbons on Sept 3, 2008 15:19:43 GMT -5
If you were a victim of rape or torture, would you still be "you"? I have not been raped or tortured, but I have been a victim of an assault by a group. The worst part for me was being made to feel like a sub-par human. This happened 6 years ago and it is only in the last year that I've begun to feel a bit like myself again and I'm still a long way from being functional & productive. I'm exceptionally anxious now and I never was before. I can't tolerate being touched by someone I don't know well (like at church) or having someone hover over me. So I do feel that I was not "myself" for five years. Actually, I wasn't anybody, just a mound of anxiety and uncertainty. |
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hopehope
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,815 
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Post by hopehope on Sept 3, 2008 22:31:10 GMT -5
"although for a long time after the abuse I neglected my body because it was easier for me to think of my body as not really part of me."
wow. thank you for articulating this. it explains a lot of my experience as a young and middle teenager.
apropos the main topic -- much to say -- only for now will say this -- a few New Yearses ago I was faced with attempted rape.
I was ultimately able to get out of the situation.. walked home -- in an evening gown -- 3 miles in the wee hours. then saw this man again and again and again -- every week, after religious service, he would get in my face. He was about 3x my size.
I said nothing to him, but did not give him the time of day.
It changed everything. It changed me.
He had ccultivated me for 4? months -- as a "Friend" -- he would say over and over again " this is not a date" and 'you treat a friend of the opposite sex the same way you treat a friend of the same sex."
It was the first time in my life I had joined this kind of religious institution. It changed everything about how I saw the people there.
It's a very huggy touchy place -- I decided I had to think about if I was ever being touched when I didn't want to be -- and I had to make myself responsible.
I find I repeatedly express distaste about male contact with near strangers -- tango, and the lonely guys at this place that just want a ittle free contact -- I keep expressing this revulsion in front of the one guy I have really liked there. He must think I'm frigid!
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Post by roseoftexas on Sept 4, 2008 19:33:48 GMT -5
I haven't continued reading this thread since I first posted in it. I want to, but I can't seem to make myself do so right now. I want to answer Lioness's questions, but I am avoiding them. They are hard questions for me. I believe it would be helpful to me to read this but I just can't - right now. But hopefully I can come back later. As an aside (and I don't know that there was really ever any confusion on this), but just to make sure - Lioness and I have communicated privately and we are the best of friends. I cherish her friendship and beyond that, all of you wonderful people here.  |
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zeeky
New Member
Joined: August 2008
Posts: 38
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Post by zeeky on Sept 5, 2008 2:13:10 GMT -5
This thread truly resonates with me, as I am a survivor of severe childhood sexual & physical abuse, & as for boundaries ... well, as my dear friend (& fellow survivor) Lilly said to me when I first brought this strange new word "boundaries" home from a therapy session -- "Zeeky, dear, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY."
& while that is no longer entirely true, I still have trouble with the concept. Getting my own place has changed me a lot ... a while back, I allowed a (temporarily homeless) friend to stay in my apartment for a few days while I was in Chicago, & when I came back I discovered that he had KEPT my spare set of keys ... & even though I was entirely sure even before talking to him that it had been merely an oversight on his part, rather than an intentional violation, I was LIVID -- I can't remember feeling so angry about ANYTHING in many years, despite the fact that far, far worse things have been done to me in that time than someone forgetting to take my housekeys out of his pocket when he left.
I don't know if I'll ever get the "boundary" issue sorted out -- when abuse begins before the age of five, it affects the way a person's brain actually develops ... & once those neural pathways are set, you just have to work with them.
But at least my living room is clean.
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Post by dirtybooks on Sept 6, 2008 3:05:45 GMT -5
- I will note that ... in the other thread ... the poster used the wording " feel like" in the thread title. She didn't say that rape was actually happening to her. She was making a comment about her feelings. Note the usage of the word "like". "Like" or "as" in a comparison means that it's a similie. I responded as if she were using a metaphor. But she was using a similie. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similieen.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaphorSometimes squalor can be so baffling that we use odd images to convey clues as to what we are feeling. - I have been both raped and (as a child) molested. I am sorry, but your stuff ***isn't*** your body. It just isn't. I have SERIOUS OCD and Hording issues that my mom and my shrink agree are both getting worse as I near my mid 30s and have been doing so since I was about eleven and had what pediatricians call (because it is so rare) a "revving-up" menstrual period, which is a mini-period that consists mostly of actual circulatory-system blood that has built up somehow during prepuberty, and yeah it feels like a violation when people move my stuff without asking, etc.,but I can tell you, we all have more control over our hoarding than we'll ever have over some *** or ***'s plans for our vulnerable non-exoskeletoned and mostly-hairless mammalian bodies. If you haven't been raped, you haven't felt what rape feels like. It's like saying that sunshine on your back is like the feeling of a reptile's skin when you've only ever seen a reptile, never touched one. You might say, "It feels like I WOULD IMAGINE rape feels," and that is all. Otherwise, you need either professional help, either from a private or a state doctor who can prescribe something or else something stronger than what you are takin; or from a philosopher whose specialty is Semiotics, the Study of Meaning. Or else someone who can tech you not to minimize others' physical peril by describing how someone who had no idea it was somehow "wrong" to touch your maybe precious-to-you (but, let's face it, nonliving and nonfeeling -- it's not babies or kittens or fish or love we're talking about), but totally not-off-limits-to-touch in the eyes of any sane member of society (and I do have don't-touch-my-stuff issues, but the first step to getting out of your excess stuff is realizing that the stuff is not, in fact, your inviolable birthright and physical appendage, but stuff, which an evicting landlord is perfectly within his rights to call the proper authorities and have physically removed from his property that you rent). There's a reason that Destruction of Property is considered a much less horrible crime than Rape, Assault, or Murder. It's because people with more perspective than us hoarders realized that property isn't part of us -- it's just things, no matter how emotionally attached we are to them. I'm sorry if this come off as hostile to people who use the phrase "It felt like I was being raped," but if you were being as thoughtful as ou want me to be, you would never have written that something your relatives were perfectly within their social and legal rights to do -- move your stuff -- felt like they were RAPING you. Would you call a relative who didn't know that her hoarding relative was saving that stack of newspapers she just used for kindling a 3rd-degree murderer? No. I am tired of casual, trendy, slangy etc., use of the words "rape" and "molest." It's bad enough that I had to learn the word "molester" in my French class in College and read Lolita with the same hipster smirk as everyone else (I eventually failed out of that college after my piles of crap and piles of issues ganged up together to overwhelm me with my own panic crap). I just can't beleive that anyone who actually wanted to belong to a group of thoughtful people and really BELONG there would be the kind of histrionic and kind-of-callous person who would use the word "rape" that way. Sorry. It just drives a wedge into my perceptions of the person when they abuse the language that way. |
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Post by lookingup on Sept 6, 2008 6:45:32 GMT -5
<<I just can't believe that anyone who actually wanted to belong to a group of thoughtful people and really BELONG there would be the kind of histrionic and kind-of-callous person who would use the word "rape" that way. Sorry. It just drives a wedge into my perceptions of the person when they abuse the language that way. >>
Not trying to add fuel to the fire here... There are a number of meanings for the word "rape" other than the strictly sexual one. Including"Outrageous Violation or Assault" or "To Plunder or Destroy; as in Warfare".
Terrible, terrible things have happened to you. It makes me sick to think of it.
I can't speak for how Rose meant it, but her situation seems to fit close enough to other descriptions for her to use the word.
Rose is not histrionic or the least bit callous. She's a nice lady.
Anne.
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Post by paperpiler on Sept 6, 2008 16:21:11 GMT -5
I think that everyone has pain and suffering in their lives. For some, that pain and suffering comes from experiences too horrible to imagine. For others, sometimes what they're suffering would not be what others would equate as "maximum suffering," and yet to them it is very real. It is a violation. It is trauma. It is "will I ever get through this torture that is happening to me?" Therefore, they use a word that conveys what they are feeling at that time. It does not equate with purposeful insensitivity to someone else's trauma...nor should it be assumed to be that way when someone uses the word. To do so is as much a violation of that person's thoughts and feelings as it is a violation of a person who was raped. If there is a problem with the word, it is because there is a marked and rightful sensitivity on a rape victim's (I choose to think of rape victims as survivors) part. But it doesn't mean that others don't have the right to use it as part of the English language to convey something heinous.
PS I am the mother of a daughter who was raped last year.
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zeeky
New Member
Joined: August 2008
Posts: 38
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Post by zeeky on Sept 6, 2008 17:47:14 GMT -5
If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that YOU CAN'T COMPARE PAIN. To say "my pain is worse than your pain" not only pointless & destructive, but also a lie ... because how do you KNOW?? HOW DO YOU KNOW?? It's impossible for any human being to KNOW how much anyone hurts, other than him- or her- self. & the worst thing that has ever happened to you is THE WORST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO YOU, & the last thing you need or deserve is some *** belittling your experience in favor of theirs ... as if their pain somehow cancels yours out, or renders it any less legitimate.
Okay -- rant over. & let's not even MENTION my high-level "rape creds", okay??*
*NOTE -- this last sentence is my idea of a really funny joke. Such is my sense of humor. I hope nobody is offended.
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Post by pegasus48 on Sept 6, 2008 20:29:06 GMT -5
If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that YOU CAN'T COMPARE PAIN. Zeeky is correct. You can't compare pain, especially emotional pain. Heck, people even feel physical pain differently. For example, I go to the dentist and it's no big deal because the hurt doesn't hurt that much. My best buddy goes to the dentist for the same procedure, she has to be knocked out. Why? Because she experiences the pain as being VERY LARGE. Her teeth are more sensitive and her system reacts a whole lot more than mine does. Our emotional systems are the same way. What devastates one person can be coped with by another. Point being: Each person's experience is their experience. Let's not discount each other or criticize each other.  |
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Post by roseoftexas on Sept 6, 2008 23:40:15 GMT -5
I am quoting Lioness's opening message to this thread below. I have rearranged some of the paragraphs in the hopes that my point of view will (hopefully) make sense. I took extra care to rearrange the paragraphs in such a way as to retain the context of Lioness's original message. I know this is a very difficult topic.
...I believe the members of this board are respectful of one another and can discuss this in a helpful way. And .... I trust that people will read or participate according to their own comfort and safety levels.
...My hope is that we can address this respectfully and all grow from this. This is my hope as well. ( emphasis mine) NOTE: I understand there are members here who are hoarders and who really do identify strongly with their stuff.
My intent is NOT to criticize or make fun of those feelings.
My intent is to bring all of us together into the light of understanding. (Well that sounds a bit lofty but ... you know what I mean). I have faith that we can honor and respect different viewpoints here. I share that faith. On the old Squalor Survivors forum and now on SOS, we have had a few pretty heated discussions. And although I never had the time to read every single post to every single thread, it seemed to me that we always managed to talk through our differences. That doesn't mean we all ended up agreeing ( ! ), but more so that we each presented our own perspectives and freely expressed ourselves. I appreciate the fact that these boards are not overly-moderated/censored. ...My question to all of you is .... What are our boundaries ? [/color][/size] This is an extremely difficult question for me to answer, as I live in my parents' guest house. Since they are letting me live here out of the goodness of their hearts and I am not paying rent, my boundaries are ... pretty low. I feel indebted to them and therefore, that I have not earned the right to set very firm boundaries. Which, I understand, is not good. The situation is becoming very toxic, but I feel trapped - for various reasons I won't go into here.
I am going to have to stop here. This is really hard for me to post about.[/quote] |
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hopehope
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Posts: 3,815
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Post by hopehope on Sept 7, 2008 0:16:19 GMT -5
best to you, rose. we appreciate you. hh
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Sept 7, 2008 1:57:39 GMT -5
- As an aside (and I don't know that there was really ever any confusion on this), but just to make sure - Lioness and I have communicated privately and we are the best of friends. I cherish her friendship Just in case anyone is wondering .... RoseOfTexas and I live thousands of miles apart and have never met in real life. But we "met" at the old Squalor Survivors board ... maybe one-and-one-half years ago, (approximately). We gradually became online friends ... and have communicated privately for some time. We are the sort of friends that recognize that we might see some things the same... and some things differently. Like real-life friends, we know that even if we don't always see everything in life from the same viewpoint ... we can acknowledge our differences and still be friends. I trusted in her friendship when I started this thread, and I still do. I was not afraid of posing challenging questions. Because I am not afraid of "speaking my own truth". I recognize that she's where she is, and I'm where I'm at. At the moment, she and I are in different places about our attachments to our stuff. But that doesn't make either of us "better" than the other. We are just in different places in this process. And, goodness knows, I have my own "issues". RoseOfTexas and I are still are great friends, and have spoken privately since these threads have started. On the old Squalor Survivors forum and now on SOS, we have had a few pretty heated discussions. And although I never had the time to read every single post to every single thread, it seemed to me that we always managed to talk through our differences.
That doesn't mean we all ended up agreeing ( ! ), but more so that we each presented our own perspectives and freely expressed ourselves. I appreciate the fact that these boards are not overly-moderated/censored. Even though I started this thread, I chose not to "police" it. Why? Because I recognize that the topic is emotional, and lots of feelings would come bubbling to the surface. I knew when I started it that some people would vent angrily, others would post supportive hugs, and many would have mixed feelings. Starting this thread may not have seemed a "safe" thing for me to do. But I really do trust the membership here. We are all tolerant of one another's struggles. I also think that we can be tolerant of one another's anger. I know that many of you are used to me taking on the role of "the hugger", "the one who tries to bring everyone together", "the one who tries to smooth over ruffled feelings", etc. But some of the feelings expressed in this thread cannot be "smoothed over". Nor should they be smoothed over! Repressed anger can be a cause for squalor. Certainly it can be toxic to repress anger about the topic of rape. So I chose to not "correct" or "police" anybody. I know you're not used to me be the one to "shake things up". But you do know I have to "speak my own truth". I vowed once to not let my rape experience make me afraid of life. And I will not be silenced on this topic. Too many women for too many millenia were forced into silence about rape. No more. Sometimes lions need to ROAR. ---- Regarding the topic of hoarding and squalor:I know I've posted some challenging (and possibly upsetting) questions in the thread-starter. Very uncomfortable topic(s). On this board, and on the prior board, we emphasize being supportive of one another, and being non-judgemental. The word "L-A-Z-Y" is censored and comes out as *** when typed normally. Why? Because we don't label ourselves disrespectfully that way. My intention for the questions I posed was to challenge people to think ... while not criticizing anyone. And I'm not going to criticize people who respond with strong emotions. I think it's helpful to challenge people to think. How can we grow, if we keep thinking and doing things the same way we've always done them? Sometimes it helps to examine our basic assumptions. For those of you who are choosing to look at the questions that I posed in the thread-starter: Nobody is required to answer ALL of the questions in the thread-starter. This is not a test! You can reply to whatever aspect of the thread-starter you choose to reply to. Or reply to anything in this thread that makes you think.
There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. This is just a thread to help us all really think about our relationships to the physical world.I don't know where this thread is going to lead .... it will go where it goes. We've had threads on the old board that went in all sorts of unexpected directions. Yet, ultimately, the discussions were fruitful and made all of us think a little deeper about whatever issues arose in the discussions. - |
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