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Post by Nael_C on Dec 26, 2022 9:03:44 GMT -5
OK, I will jump right to the point. I am working today following the 15' method. 15 minutes work. It seems so long, I had to cut it down to 10.
Should I feel some kind of joy, of success when I finish each one? I feel NOTHING, nothing at all. It is like I didn't even finish anything.
So, what happens when getting steps done means nothing? How do I make it feel like I am ACTUALLY achieving something? Is it my All-Or-Nothing Mentality? Am I self sabotaging those little steps?
Do you have any advice to give me please? I would appreciate it very much.
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Post by phoenixcat on Dec 26, 2022 10:00:40 GMT -5
Nael_C  In my opinion, I think we get expectations created FOR US by either 1) seeing/reading/imagining how others are doing (including here) and 2) sometimes not trusting our own opinion and maybe expecting a validation from someone outside and often not getting it. I equate cleaning to weight loss often. Recently I've lost close to 25 pounds - clothes are loose on me or don't fit. In some things I've gone down sizes. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON BESIDES DH HAS SAID A WORD. And, DH is watching me work at it every day so he is in the middle of it. But the things I am noticing are not joy or success - I am noticing the ABSENCE. Putting on my existing clothes is not like a tourniquet. Going up and down stairs isn't like climbing Mt. Everest by hanging onto railings with both hands. Going to sleep without a handful of Tums because I've been eating crap into the night. Right now - with all the holiday hoopla - I feel really sick. For the next days, I'm going back to very light eating because I'm not enjoying this - all the chips/candy/cookies/carb loaded suppers are making me feel terrible. My body is getting used to being treated better. And, that is how I look at cleaning/organizing, etc. In the absence of bad feelings. The more you do - the easier life is. Because life is full of crap - your cleaning is not going to stop the world from turning - people and animals you love are going to get sick and die, you may have appliances and vehicles that need repair or replacement, you may have financial setbacks, you may have fights with loved ones, all the junk that a life lived brings on to you every minute of every day. But the cleaning/organizing means that is one less thing that isn't hitting you in the head. When you need to travel in a hurry and not only can you find necessary documents but if needed - people can check on your house/pets. When you don't have to spend an extra 20 minutes looking for scissors/tape to wrap some packages when you literally have only 5 minutes to spare before walking out the door. When you don't have to spend another $10 bucks to replace the scissors and tape for the 15th time. When you want to help someone else and you can actually wear clean clothes and be able to be semi-clean yourself because you can access a shower. Or the same for going to a job or applying for a job. When you can access countertops, food storage and appliances to prepare better food for yourself or a spot on the floor for exercise. When you have people in to repair or replace things that make your daily life easier. When you can access your bills, your checkbook, your passwords for online banking. So I don't feel joy in actually DOING IT - but I feel a lot of satisfaction when my work makes something (anything) easier. And, when my lack of cleaning/organization makes a bad day much worse - that is when I really regret not taking the 10 minute spurts to simply do the dishes, make the salad, do the laundry, clear up the floor so I don't trip on things or step on something sharp, put away the bills/checkbook. It is those small actions done constantly that will make ALL THE DIFFERENCE when sh1t hits the fan or you are just basically having an average Monday. Maybe don't look for joy and satisfaction - look for the absence of "what could make it worse".   PC
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Post by dustydaughter on Dec 26, 2022 10:07:46 GMT -5
I think this is why a lot of us like rewards like stickers, allowing yourself a treat or time to play a game, etc. I am 65 years old, and gold star stickers still motivate me.  If the task itself isn’t satisfying, build in a reward you can look forward to. A lot of us post here after each work segment. Or make a game out of it. Some people roll dice to pick what task to do next. |
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Post by hedy on Dec 26, 2022 10:48:18 GMT -5
Nael_C, I can only tell you what helped ME: (re)decorating parts of my living space as I went. For years and years, I felt unmotivated to do much decluttering, and when I did, there was often a strangely depressing feeling to it. It took me a few years, I am ashamed to say, to realise what was happening: it wasn't just the giving up an old way of seeing myself & my life (although this is a vitally important aspect); it wasn't just my being all-or-nothing (which I used to be) - it was also the very prosaic fact that what was behind and under (and over) that clutter just wasn't pretty. The moment I started repainting the walls (inspired by larataylor) and doors, everything else got moving much faster. I am not saying this is your situation, not at all. But it was in my case - and tackling that made all the difference.
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Post by Nael_C on Dec 26, 2022 11:43:40 GMT -5
Thank you very much for your answers. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. It feels extremely relieving to have people who have been there, or are still there, where you are now standing. phoenixcat, you must be in my mind. Everything you wrote resonated, from the lack of personal care, to the toxic eating habits, to the losses that life holds inevitably, but most of all to the real goal. Not the joy of actually doing the hard stuff, but the outcome of those hard stuff being done in our future days, in our future everyday lives and how they are going to slowly transform. I hold this hope and I am grateful you offered your wisdom. dustydaughter, a reward would work, but now I am feeling so low, a reward would have to be something of big significance to make me feel better about myself right now. But thank you a lot for trying to help! hedy, omg, yes, there is ugliness on that clutter, sometimes I hate those things, so even if I dust them and tidy and keep them in a nest, they are not loved, most of them. "The very prosaic fact", your phrase stood out to me! I'd love to repaint this hallway, I've been telling my DH forever, we never do. Maybe I could use this as a reward. For example, if I declutter the bedroom, the reward could be to paint the hall, that would make a difference since it's always dark and gloomy (we chose a color that actually absorbs rather than reflects light and never got to fix it, instead now chunks of the wall and paint have chipped off, and nor these nor the color ever changed). The fact is, that in this house of ours, changes take forever. We discuss things forever and ever, and don't actually take the steps for those things to change. They don't get changed by themselves, do they? |
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Post by desposito on Dec 26, 2022 13:47:37 GMT -5
Nael, I don't know if the actual work ever gives us joy, or even, becomes less onerous. But it's the result that makes it worth it, and if your place is in bad shape it might take a while before you see a big difference. I usually suggest that people pick the area of their house that gives them the most day to day annoyance and start there, because then you'll feel the results faster. For example if you have nowhere to prepare food (something that you have to do several times a day) then work on clearing a kitchen surface. Or if your bed is full of stuff so that you have to sleep on an uncomfortable couch, then clear the bed off.
The other thing that makes work worthwhile is that after you're able to make a significant change in your home, you feel a sense of pride that you were able to do it. That doesn't come right away, in fact, you might feel worse at the beginning because you're putting a lot of effort in but not seeing big results--or you're wondering why it's so hard for you to keep your place clean when other people make it seem effortless (it actually isn't effortless, for anyone, but for some of us it just feels a lot harder). This is where the continuing effort comes in, because once you realize that you've made progress that lasts, you do feel pride in yourself.
In any event, when our homes are in bad shape we feel bad anyway, so we might as well be working to make it better!
Diane
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Post by outfromundah on Dec 26, 2022 15:45:28 GMT -5
Oh boy, I can relate!
It would be great if every time I cleared a little area in my apartment, there would be fireworks, a band playing, and the sun breaking through the clouds! At least those would seem more celebratory than just looking at a small, clean and empty corner of my apartment. But all I can do is appreciate that little empty corner and acknowledge myself for getting it done.
I like making a game out of the tasks I need to do. Sometimes it's Beat the Clock, where I get as much done as possible before the timer goes off. And other times it's World Domination! I like to think of my apartment as a globe or map of the world and each little area I have cleaned is a small country or a city, whatever, and not only do I need to defend it, but I need to "conquer" other areas until they all connect.
No matter whether it's checking off items on a list or playing games to trick myself into decluttering and cleaning, I think that sense of satisfaction comes when I let go of expectations, step back, and just acknowledge myself for taking action. My default is to be a slug, so realizing I've actually done something makes me feel much better.
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Post by Arid on Dec 26, 2022 15:49:54 GMT -5
WOW!
All the posts here are *EXCELLENT!!*
I nominate this thread for the "favorites" section. (Then again, how often do folks--especially "newbies"--look there? It might be better left here . . . ?)
Arid
P. S. Nael_C, like you, I get virtually *no* satisfaction out of cleaning and/or decluttering. I've written about that many times . . . However, I have taught myself to do some "chores" on a regular basis "just because." A.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Dec 27, 2022 0:26:07 GMT -5
WOW! All the posts here are *EXCELLENT!!* I nominate this thread for the "favorites" section. Yes! I was just about to post that - to nominate this for the favorites section!
the "favorites" section. (Then again, how often do folks--especially "newbies"--look there? Yeah I know, I've been meaning suggest to the mods a better way to make it more apparent.
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Post by NewLifeToday on Dec 27, 2022 3:47:39 GMT -5
WOW! All the posts here are *EXCELLENT!!* I nominate this thread for the "favorites" section. (Then again, how often do folks--especially "newbies"--look there? It might be better left here . . . ?) Arid P. S. Nael_C, like you, I get virtually *no* satisfaction out of cleaning and/or decluttering. I've written about that many times . . . However, I have taught myself to do some "chores" on a regular basis "just because." A. I, too, think this is a Favorite Thread. It is going in my bookmarks. Nael_C Thank you for bringing up this topic. This thread is full of ideas I find vital.
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Post by Nael_C on Dec 27, 2022 11:47:28 GMT -5
outfromundah, nothing will work and "stick" as a newfound good habit, unless there is an external or internal reward. I recognized the lack of it in myself, aka the "joy". Instead I must invent something in the abscence of those, so that the actions I take to improve the conditions can be followed through. Thank you very much everyone for the help and suggestions!
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Post by def6 on Dec 27, 2022 11:48:36 GMT -5
Hello Nael_C Thank you for this thought provoking thread. I think it might answer why many members of this forum have striking similarities and can relate so well to each other's experiences. I have found through much reading ( and I mean years of research ) Insert Disclaimer: I'm no expert.... The feeling of Joy is made possible with a chemical in the brain called Dopamine . This chemical is very important in order to feel rewarded. No reward ...No motivation. It's like working for someone and not getting paid. Fast forward to the buzz word of the year "Self Care." I think I get a shot of Dopamine to the brain just saying the word.... Everyone try it. I have also felt a shot of Dopamine to the brain when on this forum we discuss things like observing our own thoughts with a sense of non-judgmental curiosity ( mynicehome) In fact, Having the right amount of this chemical in the brain is better than eating chocolate. Nael _ C may you be rewarded for each and everything and may you feel joy. |
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Post by Nael_C on Dec 27, 2022 12:04:30 GMT -5
def6, exactly! You explained it so much better than me. It's working without getting paid. And in the long run it will fail unless something changes. This forum is incredible and all the members are helpful, resourceful and understanding. Self care. I must apply this, it's important to insert self care in my days.Thank you a lot!
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Post by mynicehome on Dec 27, 2022 15:41:48 GMT -5
Hello Nael_C. What an interesting and insightful thread! Thanks ((((( def6))))) for the tag! Well, you've hit the nail on the head with the Buddha quote you chose, that mind is everything and the only thing there is. Our world - all of our joy and suffering - is created in our mind, we truly are what we think we are, we feel what we think we are feeling, we live life in the way we think life should be lived. Buddha goes much further than this to say that there is no true external world; it's an illusion fed by our judgements, beliefs, and personal narratives. He also has much to say about expectations and the suffering that holding them closely can bring. Expectations spring from desires, and desires are a type of bondage. Yes, even the 'good' desires, yes, even the ones that do ultimately bring a transitory happiness. But desires and expectations, if dashed or not realized, can bring about a despair, and yes, even that is transitory IF we can let go easily, if we haven't bound our identity with it, if we are able to accept the fundamental truths that what is IS, and that everything changes. Truly, these truths do set one free. And there is no such thing as joy-on-demand. Joy is a gift that we can learn to be open to receive when it comes. It's a suffusion that begins in the heart and often has no traceable immediate cause. The same thing can be said of genuine peace and gratitude. They can't be orchestrated, or maneuvered, they are gifts of the highest order. The advice I would give you is to practice sense mindfulness with every task. EXPERIENCE every movement, every sight, every sound, every touch, every taste as you go about the work. This puts the busy and resistant mind on 'hold' so to say, and gives it a much-needed break. Thoughts will break in, negative ones, harsh and judgmental ones and you simply turn your full attention back to the real-time sense experience of what is at hand. This does take some practice but as you begin to live in the moment and not in your mind you will begin to feel the natural flow that is always with us at all times under our thoughts, under our narratives. This can rest your mind to such a degree that you will spontaneously gain insights into your situation and ways to deal with it with patience, kindness to yourself and others, and success. And then, you will be open to joy.  Don't give up, and don't give in to despair and anger with your circumstances. Use your circumstances to hand you the lessons you need to learn to live life more fully. Accept your situation as it is and let the energy that went into resistance and opposition swing back into the energy you need to go forward with your goals!  |
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Post by razy on Dec 27, 2022 16:12:11 GMT -5
I have been thinking about this a lot over the past few days...so I'm wondering if sometimes it's not about 'reward' but more about 'punishment' (or avoiding punishment). Both concepts generated from our own expectations.
Here's how it works for me - in my head
"Look at that messy thing, I need to do something about that, it is proof I am a hopeless person, etc" x 150000 - can go on for days/weeks/months without doing anything it about . This is the 'punishment'
I have learnt to be aware of this way of thinking and to do something about the things that annoy me the most - seems logical but it has taken me a long time to work this out.
I am learning that doing the things that annoy me the most has 2 x benefits:
1. It gets me out of the 'there is soooo much to do I don't know where to start' conundrum and away from the paralysis of indecision
2. I stop punishing myself over that thing.
So when I stop punishing myself it doesn't bring me joy or give me a reward but it does give me a little bit of relief. And it builds my confidence and sense of self efficacy a little. It also challenges some of those unuseful thoughts and beliefs I have (everything needs to be perfect, I am hopeless, I can't do this-everyone else can,etc)
Over the years I have managed to build some useful habits which have made life easier, but have not brought me 'joy', but it has created space for joy from other things. For example, I always do 2 x loads of laundry every week. This does not bring me joy, but it means I always have clean clothes. This means I always have something to wear for any occasion (and only have the stress of deciding what to wear)which I might enjoy
Most recently I have been working on keeping the kitchen tidy. There's no joy in the constant, repetitive, boring, yucky tasks I have to do everyday. None at all. I would much rather stay on the couch and do nothing! However, I have experienced moments of pleasure about my tidier kitchen. When I go to start cooking and can get started without having to clear away piles of dishes, I have a feeling of pride that I have been disciplined enough to keep at it. This is a reward.
We know that 'reward' works better than 'punishment' in changing behaviour and I think defining what the reward is might be the key to making this work.
Once again this may come down to our expectations. If we expect reward from completing the task (eg doing laundry or tidying the kitchen) then we will be disappointed because there will be very little 'joy'. Then we will stop doing it. If we focus on something more intrinsic, like maintaining self discipline, which does not immediately produce a reward and sometimes it even feels like an unpleasant thing to do, we can avoid punishment (from ourselves 'see, I knew you couldn't do it, you're hopeless') Eventually, a good feeling will come from sticking to it.
Anyways, that's what I been thinking about...and now I need to go and clean up the kitchen
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