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Post by Peach on Jun 16, 2010 15:22:59 GMT -5
Sometimes our desire to be good friends online causes us to say things like, "Oh, you're right, they're wrong, this, that, or the other is okay, don't feel bad," when we should be saying, "You know, we care about you and understand how you feel, but maybe your denial, behavior, etc., is getting in the way of your recovery." Again, to quote from the mods' thread: " Beating squalor takes a confrontation of the condition and the behavior that got us here in the first place. Sometimes this process is itself messy and unpleasant.. . . We also need a reality check every once in a while. Sticking our head in the sand, ignoring the very real harm squalor causes, is not only dishonest, it cuts out critical motivation to clean it up." The companionship we get from this board is great, but it should be secondary to getting the support, encouragement, and occasional kick-in-the-a** all of us may need to get our homes and lives in order. Thanks, DD, for this explanation. I was having trouble understanding how, or thinking of any examples, any of us is enabling clutter, hoarding and/or squalor. I guess it boils down to giving a little "tough love" to each other, along with compassion and empathy. SOSers are known for being extra nice and polite. We do this so we don't further upset anyone who is already distraught. We will need to remember to choose any non-enabling words carefully in order to not drive anyone away.
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Post by Script on Jun 16, 2010 16:08:37 GMT -5
I say this with respect, but I'm not understanding the original post by the mods. Dear Shop Girl and others: I am answering on behalf of the others, as they are busy. Besides the actual BOARDS and posts, there were also some behind-the-scene realities that were troubling us collectively. For example: *discussions in chat *private messages to the mods about chat *private messages to the mods about other members *off-hand-comments over the months in various and sundry posts I for one am always turning to our various mantras when welcoming newcomers and encouraging everyone: examples: 'you can do it', 'turn on the timer', 'what about listzilla?'. At the same time, we felt that it was very important to RE-STATE the purpose of this board in a clear way, in a permanent form, to which we can refer at any time. I know that I NEED TO BE REMINDED almost daily to clean something. Yes I am in maintenance. No maintenance is not yet a habit. Yes I am better. No I will never be totally free of 'ghost squalor' and bad memories. luv from Script
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Post by shopgirl on Jun 16, 2010 16:51:51 GMT -5
Thank you Script, for explaining the mods' "Enabling" post. I am rarely in chat (words go by too fast, I can't keep up!), so I had no idea what was going on in there. I have always found this message board to be packed with encouragement, positive reinforcement, and helpful ideas on how to tackle problems. Even the girl with the broken leg last week was encouraged to do the tasks she could, and possibly hire help to do the things she couldn't do herself. (Sorry, girl-with-broken-leg, I cannot recall your name, but I do remember YOU!)
I'm in maintenance myself, but I do backslide more often than I wish. When I look around my house and see a problem growing, I have always found inspiration here at this forum to "grab a bag." I read posts, and next thing I know the dishwasher is running and I've got a load of laundry going.
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Jun 16, 2010 18:44:24 GMT -5
I guess it boils down to giving a little "tough love" to each other, along with compassion and empathy. SOSers are known for being extra nice and polite. We do this so we don't further upset anyone who is already distraught. We will need to remember to choose any non-enabling words carefully in order to not drive anyone away. The concept of "tough love" is really difficult, because as I'm sure most of the people on this board already know, tough love won't work until someone is honestly ready to solve whatever problems or issues they may have. Friends and family nagged at me about my packrat tendencies for years, but I simply tuned them out because I wasn't ready or willing to do anything about it. It wasn't until I opened my eyes and saw how just how much my "stuff" was controlling every aspect of my life that I realized I had to change the way I looked at my things. I now have my own version of "tough love" post-it notes in my wallet and in my "staging area" (the clear area in my apartment where I take boxes to go thru and sort). On each note, I've written three questions: 1. Do you honestly need this item? 2. Do you honestly have a place to put it if you keep it? 3. Will this item contribute to or detract from your ideal home? Making myself stop and really think about the things I'm holding in my hand at that moment can be a giant pain in the tuckus, but it has helped tremendously. Once I can get myself past my emotional attachment to whatever I'm holding and think about it logically, most of the time I come to the conclusion that I don't need whatever it is. I can't tell you how many times I've put things back on a store shelf or in a box to give away because I couldn't answer "yes" to those three simple questions. I'm planning on printing out the mods' post to place in my apartment along with my post-it note. The next time I consider waffling on any of my three questions, I know their list of the ways squalor hurts us will keep me in check. (It sure beats having my mom standing behind me, saying "You don't need that--get rid of it" ten thousand times. :
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 17, 2010 0:18:57 GMT -5
Great thread. What I like about this is that it makes it ok for folks to ask questions like the ones disorganized dragon posted.
I remember once very early when I first came to the forum here and was about to get a SpotBot. By this time you all had encouraged me, tolerated me when my emotions hit an intense level related to cleaning "hot spots" in the house, had basically kept me moving. I remember one member asking me if I would actually use the SpotBot or if it would end up as a pile of unused gadgets hoarded in my house.
It was a good question to ask, because since then I do occaisionally think "Oh maybe I should try that product", but the question taught me to think carefully about things before I buy them. I don't need a thousand different tools to clean the floors in the house, just a handful of really effective ones that are easy to use and store.
For me the SpotBot fit in that category, but I never would have thought carefully about it without the question.
I was also thinking about the other ways I've been "tough loved". One time I came into chat and desperately needed to get some things clean before my daughter got home and had limited time. The member who helped me that time suggested tea first, then suggested a focused schedule that involved continuous cleaning, but in 10 minute spells, reporting back progress and running off to clean again very quickly.
On my own I might not have gotten myself to work like that, but the *encouragement* and structure really was powerful for me. Thanks by the way, I'm sorry I don't remember right now who you are!
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Post by DJ on Jun 17, 2010 8:12:42 GMT -5
really appreciated this post by the mods. for me i'm most shameless about my squalor and hoarding. people see it, they know, friends and family come in, we are running a mostly successful business even if it is stressful, in alot of ways it's a non issue until it becomes an issue. until things take far longer than they should until it is far harder to do something than it should be until i hve to leap like a gazelle over things and at the end of the day anymore my joints hurt.
alot of the big bad scary stuff hasn't been an issue for me. but it deteriorates the quality of my life, eats away at my finances, eeks away my energy slowly, and can take away from the fun time in life.
thank ya mods.
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hopehope
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,815
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Post by hopehope on Jun 17, 2010 22:26:23 GMT -5
Ya, well, be careful with me with that tough love stuff.
almost never never never a good idea with me.
go into reverse.
please don't. thanks.
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Jun 17, 2010 23:04:24 GMT -5
Thanks to the mods for the post.
My thing isn't so much "You can do it" or "You'll get there in your own time" as it is, "You're not alone." I've said all of those three at one time or another, but the "You're not alone" one is the one I relate to personally, and something I want to say to newcomers.
That doesn't address my thoughts about those of us who've been here for a while, but I think I'm much more likely to say, "You can do it," than I am to say "You'll get there in your own time." That one seems too enable-y to me. (To me.)
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 18, 2010 0:39:52 GMT -5
Ya, well, be careful with me with that tough love stuff. almost never never never a good idea with me. go into reverse. please don't. thanks. I think this is also important to remember. One thing I've noticed within AA is that my best sponsors tailored their responses to work with each sponsee as an individual, rather than a cookie cutter approach.
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Post by gottaproblem on Jun 18, 2010 11:31:55 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this Hope, I would have overlooked it,as I don't get here everyday. I don't have a computer at home. I have never felt enabled in my mess, but I do get complacent and stop for awhile. I will look at the admin's post to remind me of the things that my mess are causing me that I have put blinders on for: health, companionship, new washer, new refrigerator, etc.)
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Jun 18, 2010 13:57:10 GMT -5
I think this is also important to remember. One thing I've noticed within AA is that my best sponsors tailored their responses to work with each sponsee as an individual, rather than a cookie cutter approach. Y4O, I completely agree that an individual approach is always best. However, I don't think that's usually possible in an online situation. Those of us on this board don't normally see each other or deal with one another in an AA sponsor/sponsee-type way; unless someone speaks out, like Hope, and asks for exactly what they want and need, it's difficult, if not impossible, to know what approach will work whom. Hence, the mods' reminder that this board exists to help people " BEAT clutter, hoarding and squalor. . .We are not here to enable anyone to continue living in trash for the sake of merely feeling good." This means we are here to encourage and support one another as we each attempt to clean and de-clutter our homes. Unfortunately, sometimes support and encouragement needs to be direct and honest--but never unkind or cruel--in order to help people see how their actions and behavior may be preventing them from achieving the very thing they want: A squalor-free and stuff-free home. Enabling only acknowledges someone's feelings about a situation, whereas support acknowledges not only the feelings, but also the facts. We may feel that we deserve to eat that box of cookies because we've had a bad day, that we've earned the right to buy some expensive new toy because we've worked so hard, or that we should be able to go to the flea market and shop for bargains because we're going to kill our families if we don't get out of the house. But the fact is those cookies will contribute to our weight gain and health problems the extra weight has caused, that expensive new toy will put us deeper in debt and farther away from the financial stability we say we want, and that trip to the flea market will only result in a purchase of more stuff we don't need and don't have a place for in our home. The members of this board are wonderful when it comes to treating people's feelings with care and respect. The mods are simply trying to remind us to not disregard the facts of someone's situation while we acknowledge their feelings about it. If someone is going to lose their home or family due to squalor or hoarding, we all know how they feel and want to give them the emotional support they need. But we need to do more than that--we need to encourage them to do something about their situation, whether it's cleaning up their home, getting therapy or professional organizational help, negotiating with landlords and/or city officials for more time to get things under control, etc. Holding someone's hand and telling them everything will be okay without helping them create a plan of action is enabling. Telling someone we all understand how you feel, we're here for you, and here's a list of things you can do to improve your situation is supportive. Enabling helps absolutely no one, whereas kind and well-reasoned support can change lives for the better. The mods want us to stop doing the first behavior and do more of the second. Unfortunately, sometimes it really hurts when we're forced to deal with the truth about something in our lives. But dealing with the truth beats trying to live a lie every time.
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Post by sidestep on Jun 18, 2010 14:24:12 GMT -5
I have been following the original post by the mods & also this thread. I agree with shopgirl. I find it a bit offensive as I do not see folks sitting back mollycoddling others & encouraging them to continue to live in squalor to avoid the unpleasant feelings the process of squashing squalor would cause.
I see folks working very hard at overcoming their squalor, all at different rates. I see evidence of their hard work everyday in the forum posts, in listzilla, in photos & especially daily in Chat Challenges.
I see lots of encouragement given to folks to overcome their squalor & give them a reason to do so, especially since so many folks do not receive positive encouragement of their efforts to step out of squalor from those they live with & are forced to endure the daily drudgery of housework minus encouraging accolades outside of this forum.
That is the true magic & beauty of this place, & for that I'm grateful. Folks with success stories of their continuing journey stepping out of squalor are all around us.
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Post by dtesposito on Jun 18, 2010 15:21:57 GMT -5
I agree with you here DD, there's a big difference between making hurtful unhelpful comments and making kind but firm comments about someone's squalor. You can acknowledge how someone is feeling and still gently point out when there is self-deception going on--I think we all can benefit from hearing someone's view from outside ourselves, it will be way more objective. I hope everyone here realizes that we are in our situations from having distorted thinking--it can be very helpful to hear someone point out that distortion if it's done in a non-threatening way--and if it comes from someone who is in the same process of recovery so we know that they understand the basic issues.
Diane
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Post by moggyfan on Jun 18, 2010 17:04:31 GMT -5
I agree with DD & Diane about the difference between being straightforward and being unkind. Over my four years here, I've seen a number of straightforward posts misinterpreted as unkind or uncaring, but I've almost never seen anyone be deliberately unkind.
The truth can hurt, but it doesn't mean it's not the truth. or that it shouldn't be noted. I can honestly say that some of the most insightful and helpful words ever spoken to me were ones I did not want to hear.
Pigpen often observed that our feelings were just that--feelings. They are not reliable guides to right-thinking and right-action. I have always thought she was completely right about that.
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Post by gifted on Jun 18, 2010 18:15:12 GMT -5
I know that I have beat myself up over my squalor, and this is a big component of my depression. I KNOW there are times when my mental illness interferes with my ability to clean and desqualor my home. The mod's post makes me think that I may not be welcome at the board during these times when I need support MOST.
I am very uncomfortable with someone deciding that I am being disabled, and administering "tough love" at a time when I am desperate, and perhaps being suicidal.
There was an incident, perhaps a few months ago when a member was not participatingmuch in chat, and she was feeling unwell. I sincerely believe that chat saved her life that evening. If she were to fear disapproval she might not have voiced her symptoms and received the help she needed. If the other chatters had not encouraged her to describe her symptoms, her condition may not have gone unseen. For this reason, I think that it is best to err on the side of kindness, because otherwise we might lose that person because they fear disapproval, or perhaps we lose them entirely.
There have been times when I have thought the spirit of this board has changed from Pigpen's original forum. This may be inevitable, but I mourn the passing of the idea of the person's total well-being being first and foremost.
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