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Post by dtesposito on Jun 18, 2010 20:19:22 GMT -5
But you could interpret this to mean that total well-being goes beyond the immediate moment--that you may have to feel a little uncomfortable in the short term to face your own denial and have total well-being later.
I think the camaraderie and compassion on this site are incredible--and obviously a big part of why so many people find it helpful. I think people can tell when someone is having a particularly bad day or even week--this is different from someone having the same excuses week after week and not trying at all to make things better. (I'm not saying that anyone is doing this--I have only been here a few months and have not read everyone's stories. I don't participate in chat, so I don't know any details about why this post appeared now.) I just know that as has been said in this thread before, the purpose of the forum is to change our squalorous behavior, which involves more than being understood and accepted, although that's an important first step.
If you read the part of the mods' post listing ways that squalor hurts us, I think it shows that gently encouraging someone to confront their denial IS being concerned about their total well-being.
Diane
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Post by Celeste on Jun 18, 2010 22:48:05 GMT -5
We aren't saying "Hey! No more of that compassion, humor and empathy! Be mean instead! Be rude! Blurt hurtful truths even if the time is absolutely rotten for it! Make sure you judge them harshly and let 'em know what a failure they are when they are least able to handle it!" We are asking you to be aware that avoidance is a possibility both for yourself and others. We are asking you to find a way to bring avoidance to someone's attention when it becomes a stumbling block to their recovery. Frankly, that's the time you need your compassion, humor and empathy the most. Listen to them. Tell them "I care for you and I think this is something you seriously need to think about." There have been times when I have thought the spirit of this board has changed from Pigpen's original forum. This may be inevitable, but I mourn the passing of the idea of the person's total well-being being first and foremost. Hmm. THAT'S a comment I don't agree with it at all. The person's total well-being IS the goal. Enabling is allowing someone to continue self-destructive behavior without taking steps to stop them. Enabling is ignoring their ultimate well-being. We want everyone here to be well, happy and squalor free, not miserable. I've been around since Kimmy first posted almost 10 years ago. I met Pigpen when she joined the original Third Degree thread. I knew her well. Pigpen was bothered by the concept of enabling. Don't take MY word for it. Read it yourself here, about half way down the page. If she saw us indulging in denial she'd get after us. I would know. She thought I was enabling someone at one point and let me know privately in no uncertain terms. She was right, too. (I stopped.) Don't you think it is interesting, Simplegifts, that you are willing to dish "tough love" on the mods when you think we're making mistakes that will hurt the community, despite what it might do to our feelings, but not tell a friend that their behavior will hurt them? What is the difference? It is the same concept, after all. You are doing what must be done to make this a healthy community. Please do the same for the health of your friends here. Sidey, I hope you won't be offended, but please understand that I HAVE seen enabling and self-sabotage on occasion around here, even if you haven't. (Not often, I hasten to add, but enough to caution folks to watch for it.) If you don't find any enabling/self-sabotage in conversations you read, that's fine, but it doesn't make the mods' experience less valid. I've also seen a lot of hard work and well-deserved rewards. The Challenge Train in the chat room lately has been awesome! I pop in every once in a while to reinvigorate myself. It doesn't take long. You are doing a fine job keeping people on track, Sidestep. Well done. Frankly, I'm hoping the mention of self-sabotage methods will make us a little more aware of our own actions. I suspect the need for someone to say anything to us will dissipate if we maintain our introspection and catch our own sabotage as they occur. I hope so, anyway. Be well, everyone.
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hopehope
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,815
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Post by hopehope on Jun 19, 2010 1:08:42 GMT -5
Although I started this thread, I'm not sure I read all the comments from the beginning. But I have read all the later ones. -- and.
Big breath.
We each are more important than the stuff.
The person who mentioned total well-being hit the nail on the head.
I'd say pretty much every time someone thought smacking me up the side of the head was a therapeutic move, here, they were acting out their own issues.
Including one of the posters here.
There's a quote from a spiritual book I read:
"Jesus beheld ... the perfect man, where sinning mortal man saw imperfect mortals. This perfect view healed the sick."
I think he also mentioned something about a first stone?
If you are sure that your own issues aren't involved, if you aren't displacing or being self-righteous or projecting...
But are you sure?
I know the times people have done that to me they have set me back.
Sometimes for important amounts of time.
I don't want to "beat clutter".
I want to wake up, live well, live happy, love myself, and heal.
Not being hobbled and made unhappy by detritus is part of that.
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Post by mouseanne on Jun 19, 2010 11:22:55 GMT -5
I dont know how it is, but I saw the new reminder post right off the bat. Maybe I am a read from the top down, or maybe my "like things the way they always have been" thingie noticed there was a change in the stickies... IMHO.....(personal experiences of my own and observances) Please note, no one, i mean, no one, take this personally... it is not directed at anyone, not an attack, nor am I thinking of any particular person, other than myself. There are a variety of reasons why we are here.. on the board... and at the place in our lives we are here. I have seen (and experienced) injury caused squalor and emo damage (family of origin or death of a loved one) caused squalor. But, there are other kinds... young moms, perhaps working, perhaps at home... wrapped up in the day to day's of dishes/laundry/kids... and the details get away from them. There are many more causes. There is also a variety of types of members. Some are fragile from family of origin issues, and when a person has only had critisism, disparagement, and scapegoating all their life, "tough love" is def going to be counter productive. In my case, when I moved, I wanted to move over a 2-3 week period and get the new house how I wanted it as I moved, the two houses, rental and purchased overlapped about 3 months... there was some remodeling my father kind of took over on... and just did. Some was good & essential to the structure of the house, and some cosmetic things... were forced on me against my plan and wants. So: good/bad. But, fa made it happen that I got dumpt in over a weekend... then I suffered an elbow injury that made it painful to move boxes etc. The move was 2000. Well, for a long time, that was the REASON. But, at some point, it becomes AN EXCUSE. I mean, even with health issues (emphysema and right knee needs replaced, to name the 2 big issues), injuries (shoulder, elbow & ankle) and four surguries (since 2000, have had hysterectomy, laproscopic hernia repair, laproscopic knee work, and laproscopic untangling of grown together in a ball & adhered to mesh of hernia with total bowel blockage work), ten years down the road, the "dumping" into the house no longer works for the "reason" and is a self-sabotaging attitude. I realized this about 3-4 years ago. So, yeah. Get to it. Do 15 min. If that hurts too much, do 5 min. Keep at it. Recognize that "want to keeps" and "has room to keeps" have to be meshed. Like it? Love it? Essential to happy life? What is the point of saving a newspaper recipe or article about a place to weekend visit, if it not accessible when I want/need/could use it? The whole point to having moderators is moderation, achieving balance. None of us can be all places. It would be an 34 hour a day job to observe chat all day AND read ALL posts. I, personally have never seen enabling or attitude that "status quo" is fine. And I am glad I have never seen it. Wouldnt want to see it, and would prefer not to have to draw Moderators attention to an issue. I have, a few times on various DBs I have belonged to, drawn Moderator attention to issues, but def less than a handful. Being a Moderator is a time-consuming & near thankless job. In that, it is impossible to please all the people all the time. Thanks, Mods, for taking such good care of us!
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Post by def6 on Jun 19, 2010 12:43:00 GMT -5
Simple Gifts; I choose People over Stuff! I'm glad you are here.
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Post by annieblue on Jun 20, 2010 17:24:22 GMT -5
I say this with respect, but I'm not understanding the original post by the mods. Dear Shop Girl and others: I am answering on behalf of the others, as they are busy. Besides the actual BOARDS and posts, there were also some behind-the-scene realities that were troubling us collectively. For example: *discussions in chat *private messages to the mods about chat *private messages to the mods about other members *off-hand-comments over the months in various and sundry posts I for one am always turning to our various mantras when welcoming newcomers and encouraging everyone: examples: 'you can do it', 'turn on the timer', 'what about listzilla?'. At the same time, we felt that it was very important to RE-STATE the purpose of this board in a clear way, in a permanent form, to which we can refer at any time. I know that I NEED TO BE REMINDED almost daily to clean something. Yes I am in maintenance. No maintenance is not yet a habit. Yes I am better. No I will never be totally free of 'ghost squalor' and bad memories. luv from Script I find this all very convoluted & confusing - both the original enabling/sabotage announcement & the above reply. If individual events/infractions prompted the need to address the issues of enabling & sabotage, why be so cryptic & draft an across-the-board general announcement? Likewise, if a general reminder of the harms of squalor was the objective, why not give it a separate thread? Further, if a re-write of this community's statement of purpose occurred, will that modification be reflected on the Community Info board under Community Purposes & Policies? Thus far, the Stepping out of Squalor statement of purpose contains only this: "We are here to share ideas and support as we work to improve our living environments." Has this changed? The current announcement states: "this site is here, first and foremost, to BEAT clutter, hoarding and squalor." Also says sometimes we forget that, due to our joy of friendship & understanding, & it helps to clean if it is fun, but we need reality checks once in a while because sticking our heads in the sand ignores the harm caused by squalor which is dishonest & cuts out critical motivation to clean up, & by the way beating squalor requires confrontation of the condition & behavior that got us there, & the process is sometimes messy & unpleasant, & living in filth hurts people, & we aren't here to say it is okay, & we're not here to enable anyone to live in trash for the sake of merely feeling good, & here's a list of how squalor hurts us, & here's another list of self-sabotaging methods to avoid in order to help us avoid excuses for taking action and participating in enabling behavior, thank you very much, the end. Wth??? At this point I have no idea what is official policy, what is reprimand, what is friendly (or firm, non-enabling) reminder, & why so many different messages are trying to be sent here all in one go. I don't know what to make of any of it. <<<---- because I can't find the emoti with question marks over its head
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Post by eagle on Jun 20, 2010 18:35:36 GMT -5
First, I don't see the reprimand. Maybe that's a personal perception.
Second, I don't see an indication that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Again, perhaps that is another personal perception.
Third, it does not appear convoluted to me. But that is my perception.
There are probably as many perceptions of the meanings of the post listing concerns we have as there are members in the community. We even have our own perceptions as to the issues mentioned therein.
Bringing issues forward to the community is almost always going to result in some kind of reaction, and often the reactions will be varied and sundry. Often when reading something that involves delicate issues (like pointing out that enabling can or does occur), emotional reactions occur. It brings up our emotions, which affect our perceptions. Emotionally colored perceptions are a funny thing, not always totally accurate. This is not to say that all perceptions are skewed beyond reality, as of course, I do not believe that. But I have learned that when my emotions run high, I need to be more careful of how I interpret (perceive) a given situation.
Now, some of you may feel that enabling does not occur and are angry that we say we are aware of and see it occur here. Even if you don't believe it does occur, I would venture to guess that at least some of you do believe the potential exists for it to occur, given the nature of our membership and our various situations.
Mention of 'tough love' certainly brought forth various reactions. My guess is that it means something different to different folks. In my experience with my sons, I would call telling my younger son, "No, I'm not going to lie to the police for you" as a tough love type of response. He accepted it. It didn't alienate him. We did not become estranged as a result. Were I to lie to the police for him, I would have been enabling. Do you see the way I interpret those things in this example? Just using a personal non-squalor related example of the terms.
Some of you apparently wonder if you are personally responsible for our concerns. That is not an uncommon reaction, but please rest assured that we will not share our concerns about any specific members with anyone else. It has been mentioned that we have received messages from members within the community who have concerns, so you can be assured that it is not only the mods who have concerns regarding enabling and a reluctance to be more direct when responding to others inaction regarding their situations.
There is nothing unusual about being reluctant to approach another member about their inaction or slowness to change or whatever one may choose to call it when talk of a problem continues, but action to remedy the situation does not follow. Many folks are uncomfortable with what they perceive to be confrontation. Then again, there are those who actually seem to thrive on confrontation.
We are simply trying to point out that sometimes it is more loving and supportive to point out to the person who spends a lot of time complaining or talking about the problem (their's or someone else's) that perhaps there is another way to go. Perhaps we notice no action, only talk. Perhaps we notice action, but it seems self-destructive.
I can tell you that MANY times I have seen folks here point out that certain actions may be less helpful than others and it's usually been received well by the person struggling. I can tell you that I HAVE seen folks say something to the person taking little action to encourage them to do a little something. We all see that. None of us are saying that doesn't occur. Of course it does!
You just have to realize that now and then, on occasion, there are instances that slip through the cracks. Just a friendly reminder that ALL of us are here for a reason, and ALL of us need support. I'd much rather you ask me what I'm going to do about it, than say, 'You poor thing. You deserve better,' and leave it at that. Hey, I might get mad initially (it's been known to happen), but usually it makes me stop and think and look for solutions. Or I might stop and think and re-read what I've been writing, to see if I sound like all I do is complain, but actually don't ever talk about taking action to improve.
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Post by annieblue on Jun 21, 2010 8:20:54 GMT -5
We are simply trying to point out that sometimes it is more loving and supportive to point out to the person who spends a lot of time complaining or talking about the problem (their's or someone else's) that perhaps there is another way to go. Eagle!Now that + "list of ways squalor hurts" + "list of ways we sabotage" is simple & straightforward. Thank you! Why such clear & concise lists, but then a kitchen-sinkful-of-stuff intro to go with it? A sinkful including talk of people sticking their heads in the sand & enabling others to continue living in trash for the sake of merely feeling good, etc. C'mon, it's impossible to have anything but a host of differing perceptions in response to everything going on in that intro, gyah. Regarding SoS policy - the following two statements, both from Admin, are not one in the same yet each declares the mission of this community: Stepping out of Squalor statement of purpose: "We are here to share ideas and support as we work to improve our living environments." Across-the-board announcement from Admin: "this site is here, first and foremost, to BEAT clutter, hoarding and squalor." You said you don't see an indication that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Logic tells me to do the math & interpret you to be saying the SoS statement of purpose stands unchanged. I can definitely live with that. You also said perhaps it is another personal perception that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Am I to interpret this to mean you don't see a problem with the incongruity of a second Admin mission statement being posted at the top of every single forum?
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Post by momof3boys on Jun 21, 2010 9:44:04 GMT -5
Yes, there are many great reasons to de-squalor and that was a great reminder. Let's help each other and support each other to be less squalor full.
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Post by eagle on Jun 21, 2010 14:55:29 GMT -5
Eagle!Regarding SoS policy - the following two statements, both from Admin, are not one in the same yet each declares the mission of this community: Stepping out of Squalor statement of purpose: "We are here to share ideas and support as we work to improve our living environments." Across-the-board announcement from Admin: "this site is here, first and foremost, to BEAT clutter, hoarding and squalor." You said you don't see an indication that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Logic tells me to do the math & interpret you to be saying the SoS statement of purpose stands unchanged. I can definitely live with that. You also said perhaps it is another personal perception that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Am I to interpret this to mean you don't see a problem with the incongruity of a second Admin mission statement being posted at the top of every single forum? You can interpret that to mean, I do not (eagle does not) see the incongruity. In my opinion sharing ideas and supprt as we work to improve our living environments includes beating (getting rid of, reducing, clearing away) clutter, hoarding and squalor. When our environments include squalor, clutter and the results of hoarding, our work to improve those environments can be termed 'beating' them. We can use other words also, but it doesn't really matter so much what words we use to describe the process. The point is that we are working towards being squalor-free, less cluttered or clutter-free and for some of our members, to be less encumbered by hoarding tendencies or to recover from hoarding. I honestly do not see these statements as being mutually exclusive as you seem to indicate. Maybe I misunderstand your use of the word incongruity, but that's just not what I see at all. Regarding being pinned to the top of every forum: This is something we often do with new announcements. The sticky pin is later removed when sufficient time has passed for the membership to have seen and read the material.
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Post by def6 on Jun 21, 2010 15:43:53 GMT -5
I don't feel it is my place to judge folks on chat or in reply to posts either for that matter. I think there IS room here for people to get in chat and just sit there if they don't want to join in . I know I have been frozen like that many times. It's those folks that need our help the most. I also think that members should not be discouraged from being honest about what is actually going on with them in terms of their squalor. The reason I say this is because someone else in chat (or who might be reading a post) might be going through the exact same situation. When we can relate to someone else-we know we are not alone. The Original Kimmy from Squalor Survivors didn't have anyone to relate to initially. She just had to come right out with the fact that she desperately needed some support to clean her squalid home. It took a great deal of courage to take those photos and describe step by step how she dug her way out. If you haven't read her story in a while-you should. During her desqualor she discovers a substance in her sink that she refers to as sink pudding.... The question I have , are we getting too sophisticated here on "stepping out" to laugh at sink pudding or to give a "Tada" when it all can be peeled up in one piece? I think it was Kimmy's brutal honesty that got my attention and kept coming back here.
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Post by annieblue on Jun 22, 2010 7:32:44 GMT -5
Eagle,You didn't misunderstand. Incongruity was a poor choice, as I certainly don't feel the two posted statements are mutually exclusive. I think my difficulty stems from how much I have totally embraced the original statement of purpose ever since the first time I read it upon coming here, & seeing it now presented differently has been a shock to me. The first time I read it I felt certain it had been carefully & thoughtfully decided upon as the best descriptor of what goes on here, what I could expect to experience, & what was also expected of me - share ideas & support as I work with others to improve my living environment. Improvement, that seemed do-able, & not as threatening as the overwhelm of the big picture I had until that time been drowning within. Of course I want to beat clutter, hoarding, & squalor. We all do. I just don't know if we can all think of it in those terms without feeling pressured in much the same way so many of us already feel from the outside world. For me, & for many others I have met along the way here, the real progress didn't begin until those pressures could be set aside long enough to realize we really do want better, & not just because the rest of the world thinks we should. I think those two lists are phenomenal & should continue to be displayed front & center anywhere Admin sees fit. They are priceless guidelines for one & all. I only ask you to take into consideration what I have said regarding the intro should the lists later become permanent. Thank you for your responses to my questions & concerns. I know you are a busy lady, & it is very much appreciated. A lovely & productive Tuesday to all, woo.
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 26, 2010 12:00:10 GMT -5
I don't know where else to do this--but one thing I noticed on a thread which was recently locked is that the topic began to veer of course when we began talking about an outside issue. In this case it was an outside issue that many have strong feelings about. Not completely related to desqualoring, but also not exactly related.
How does all of this fit in? I'll be honest, what brought me to this group as opposed to Clutterers Anonymous was the fact that you all were encouraging me. I was asked thought-provoking questions of course, but overall the encouragement was what enabled me to desqualor this house and begin inviting people in again.
My concern is that we do range far and wide on outside issues which then become a distraction. In the face of those distractions, we might stir up debate. This debate creates bad feelings.
For me personally I find I'm feeling less safe. If I wanted to be in Clutterer's Anonymous, I would. I participate in 2 other 12 step programs because that specific approach works for my addictions, which at times includes a more "hard line" approach in talking to "the malady". But it did *absolutely nothing* for my squalor. I had more than one sponsor try a more intense approach with me, which backfired each time.
When any one person says "Just do it!" or "Just get it done!" that tells me they don't actually understand my problem. But when you say, "Start where you want to!" and "Start with picking up one piece of trash!" and "Just work on 1 square foot!" -- that is exactly how my house got cleaned. It tells me that you definitely understand my problem, and that you are able to share a solution with me.
I'm bringing this up in part because I need this group to be here, but I want to be clear that what I need is the part that helped me clean my house, not the crap that contributes to my confusion, negative self talk, etc.
I don't know how to work this all in, but the debate that occurred on the locked thread was not closely enough related to desqualoring to warrant what then transpired. We all (myself included) got distracted by outside issues, then began a debate. Then it got nasty.
How do we prevent that from becoming a direction that we take on a regular basis?
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Post by eagle on Jun 26, 2010 12:17:59 GMT -5
We all (myself included) got distracted by outside issues, then began a debate. Then it got nasty. How do we prevent that from becoming a direction that we take on a regular basis? Self-monitoring is all that currently comes to mind. Learning to control our tempers, taking time to stop and reflect before typing, waiting and re-reading before using the "Post" or "Send" button (as in the use of the PM). Asking someone else to read what we wrote before we post it, in a case where the topic or our emotions are very heated. These are methods we can use to self-monitor. I had two very close friends who were so very capable of responding to even the most disturbing information in the most positive ways, without being hot-headed or losing focus or avoiding the important issues at hand. I admired them greatly and wanted so much to learn to be able to do that. I don't actually know if it was inherently a part of their characters from birth or learned over time through experience and determination. It is still something I strive toward.
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Post by moggyfan on Jun 26, 2010 12:23:09 GMT -5
Y4O wrote: "When any one person says "Just do it!" or "Just get it done!" that tells me they don't actually understand my problem. "
Maybe so, but that approach is EXACTLY what *did* work for me. I needed my butt kicked in a big way. I think there's room for all of us here, and for all approaches to cleaning up our homes.
If someone offers advice that is not helpful to you, you can ignore it or simply say the approach does not work for you. Right?
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