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Post by disorganizeddragon on Jun 26, 2010 12:59:08 GMT -5
Y4O wrote: "When any one person says "Just do it!" or "Just get it done!" that tells me they don't actually understand my problem. "Maybe so, but that approach is EXACTLY what *did* work for me. I needed my butt kicked in a big way. I think there's room for all of us here, and for all approaches to cleaning up our homes. If someone offers advice that is not helpful to you, you can ignore it or simply say the approach does not work for you. Right? Moggy, you must have had a parent or grandparent like mine. Whenever large groups of people gather together, for whatever reason, there will sometimes be differences of opinion. And sometimes those differences will become heated, especially if the topic is one that people have strong feelings about. It is simply not realistic to think that everyone will be able to put their own personalities, thoughts, feelings, likes, dislikes, etc., aside when posting on this or any other board, just as people do not allow themselves to fall completely into "group think" in the real world. I for one appreciate the varied and sundry personalities I've met on this board. I may not agree with every person, with what they have to say or how they say it, with how they approach a problem, or with what issues they choose to get passionate about, but I'm glad that all of them are here. I think the differences we all bring to this board keep it fresh and interesting and give us the ability to choose among many approaches to a problem or issue. And here's another time where "choice" comes into play: If you don't like what you're reading in a particular thread, you can stop reading that thread and find another one that will help you. Or you can simply skip over the posts you find upsetting. Or you can post a different opinion. All the options available to you in the real world are available to you here--more in fact, because you don't have to worry about offending someone when they see you walk away. My grandfather taught me a valuable lesson at a young age. A woman in our church loved to take me aside and give me advice--I was a tomboy who was always in trouble and she was trying to "save me from myself." As you can imagine, these little talks got on my very last 11-year-old nerve. I was griping about it to my grandfather and begrudgingly admitted that this lady did occasionally make some good suggestions, but that most of the time, she was hopelessly out of touch. After all, she was old. (I think this poor woman was in her 40's. ) My grandfather listened to me for a while, then said, "Just take what you need and leave the rest." I, of course, had no clue what he meant, so he explained, telling me that in life, people will say a lot of things. Some of those things will be right, some will be wrong, some will be helpful, others not so much. It would be my job to figure out what I needed to listen to, what I needed to ignore, when I needed to speak up and stand my ground, and when I needed to just walk away. He continued and said that everyone was not always going to see things the way I do and that was okay. I didn't have to agree with them, but I did have to let them have their own opinion, just as they needed to let me have mine. He finished by saying once again, "Remember, just take what you need and leave the rest." I control what I think about me, my home, and my life, no matter what anyone on this board or in the real world may say. If I think what I'm hearing has no value, I stop listening. If I'm reading a thread I don't agree with, I either stop reading and move to another thread or speak up with a differing opinion. But I respect the fact that what doesn't work for me may be the very thing that someone else needs to hear, in the way they need to hear it.
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Post by creativechaos on Jun 26, 2010 15:35:05 GMT -5
We are simply trying to point out that sometimes it is more loving and supportive to point out to the person who spends a lot of time complaining or talking about the problem (their's or someone else's) that perhaps there is another way to go. Eagle!Now that + "list of ways squalor hurts" + "list of ways we sabotage" is simple & straightforward. Thank you! *snip* Regarding SoS policy - the following two statements, both from Admin, are not one in the same yet each declares the mission of this community: Stepping out of Squalor statement of purpose: "We are here to share ideas and support as we work to improve our living environments." Across-the-board announcement from Admin: "this site is here, first and foremost, to BEAT clutter, hoarding and squalor." You said you don't see an indication that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Logic tells me to do the math & interpret you to be saying the SoS statement of purpose stands unchanged. I can definitely live with that. You also said perhaps it is another personal perception that the policy section has been or needs to be altered. Am I to interpret this to mean you don't see a problem with the incongruity of a second Admin mission statement being posted at the top of every single forum? hello everyone; after a long hiatus of computer woes, not totally solved, this is the first thread i came across in several weeks or more, and read its entirety with interest. thanks, hopey, for bringing this to attention and discussion. many thoughtful posts and questions have gone into this; thanks to all who contributed opinions and experience. i'm not a big proponent of 'beating' anything as a mission statement. if beating woulda worked for me, all those physical and verbal beatings i had woulda knocked some sense into me a long time ago. i take issue with the word 'beat' the same way i take issue with the u.s. government's 'war on' drugs, terrorism, and you name it. i feel conflicted about the use of the idea of 'beating' our squalor/hoarding/etc. it seems to be an outside-in approach that doesn't work in the long run,any more than dieting/starving/deprivation leads to permanent weight loss. what we are talking about here is changing or lives with the emphasis being on desqualoring, and i think it's an inside-out approach that one discovers THROUGH action. (paradoxical). i agree with annieblue that the two mission statements, although not exactly incongruous, do conflict and that the first one is what drew me here and the second one feels like some kind of pressure to perform or conform. but this is my own personally filtered take on it, nobody else's. if my vote counts for anything, i would ask that the second mission statement be dropped, the first one be kept, and the lists of how we self-sabotage and enable, and what we can do about it, kept in the introduction. i admit that through the song thread and poetry threads and trying to help others solve their problems and through excessive reading of posts sometimes, i avoid taking care of my own problems when i don't know what to do or when the problems of life seem insurmountable. i need to find humor in things or to help someone else who may be worse off than myself. i tend to isolate and not share how i'm struggling myself. if the model for being here were to 'beat' squalor and i hadn't beaten it after this long... well... i would feel a failure and maybe even leave due to the shame. oh well! those tendencies /faults in me prolly won't change. to each her or his own straight or circuitous path to recovery. i think rather than point out someone else's denial (the 'you' method, which often does not work), asking questions with genuine concern and curiosity, or sharing what works for us and reiterating that the other person is not alone can lead the other person to discover for themselves what is true for them and how they self-sabotage and enable, rather than being preached to about their faults. no one wants to hear or read someone constantly complaining or staying stuck in their problems for sure, anymore than we would want to read someone telling someone else what they should do or how. it was kindness and your invitations to act that changed things for me. admonitions would have sent me packing. what i like is open ended discussion, and i hope we have more of these on the subjects of self-sabotaging and enabling. what does that look like in each of our lives, how does that play out? what specific things can we do to change that? etc. maybe a few people need to hear about their denial and self sabotage, but i doubt that will help, unless they specifically ask for such feedback. i personally find learning through osmosis of others' good examples far more helpful to ME, while at the same time realizing that others need something different, and how hard that must make the job of the mods to keep this board from going the way of so many other groups with infighting. thank you, mods, for doing a splendid job of keeping us on track and harmonious here. but unless someone specifically asks for tough love or the truth, is it REALLY our business to point their pitfalls out to them, unless we check our motives? i think not. it's as hopehope said in her post. that just sends many people away and with hurt and misunderstanding. i really like the idea of self-moderation and pausing before reacting and pressing 'send'. or maybe getting busy clearing a counter or something. to loud rock and roll. having the mods' thread stickied and reading it to remind us of our common purpose and what we want to accomplish through being here is great. i'd bookmark it, read it often, and maybe then write a song or haiku about it. grin. take what you like and leave the rest. with love, cc
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 26, 2010 15:41:41 GMT -5
If someone offers advice that is not helpful to you, you can ignore it or simply say the approach does not work for you. Right? I believe outside issues were being debated in the thread I am thinking of. In the end I don't think the result for the thread and the *group* was actually useful. When it's not useful for the group, it ceases to further our group goal of finding solutions to get out of squalor. I think there is a point, specifically on internet forums where it's important to proceed much more carefully. I myself remember a newer member castigating my parenting without knowing the full situation, and I came back to rip her a new one because quite frankly, she was way out of line and spewing from her own issues. However, if five of you had been all doing the same thing I would have left the group. We can say "just ignore someone" and yes that is possible, but there is not a specific "ignore this member" function, which at that time I did inquire about. That would have allowed me to ignore every single thing posted by that specific person. Plenty of people in the rest of the wide world are ready to point fingers at those struggling with hoarding and squalor and say "Just go do it," anything of the like. If it were simply an issue of more will power, we would be "fixed" before needing to get here. Moggy, I simply don't believe you had never had someone in your life *before you got here* tell you "Just go do it". I know I did and it produced no results. There is not a point at which it has ever yielded change in terms of squalor. It was the encouragement that actually produced results in my case, and I'm not sure I am so different from others here. Be that as it may, I think it's important to get good and clear on what is within the scope of the group's mission, and what is not. I also think it's important to refrain from debate. Move debate topics to by-ways where they belong.
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Post by moggyfan on Jun 26, 2010 16:01:47 GMT -5
"Moggy, I simply don't believe you had never had someone in your life *before you got here* tell you "Just go do it". "
Y4O & cc:
Well, believe it because that *is* what happened and you know, it lit a fire under me. In fact, it is one of the reasons I found this place. (And, btw, a "Just do it" from someone with the same squalor issues as you have can pack a bigger punch than the same statement coming from an "outsider.")
I really don't know why some folks cannot accept that an approach that does not work for them CAN AND DOES work for others.
I have no problem understanding why some people need/want more gentle encouragement. Why can you (and others) not understand the inverse?
Why do you believe that someone who is more blunt and/or challenging than you wish to be is acting out of bad motives? How could you **possibly** know that?
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 26, 2010 16:13:22 GMT -5
"Moggy, I simply don't believe you had never had someone in your life *before you got here* tell you "Just go do it". " Y4O & cc: Well, believe it because that *is* what happened and you know, it lit a fire under me. In fact, it is one of the reasons I found this place. I really don't know why some folks cannot accept that an approach that does not work for them CAN AND DOES work for others. I have no problem understanding why some people need more gentle encouragement. Why can you (and others) not understand the inverse? Why do you believe that someone who is more blunt and/or challenging than you wish to be is acting out of bad motives? How could you **possibly** know that? Going to believe it now Moggy. Thanks. Helps me to know that about you, appreciate you sharing that. Haha except now my problem is that I want to know more about you! PS Aside from the topic of what works for one may not work for another--I still believe that debating outside issues will always have group consequences, and that they may not logically be in the if a then b. Debate in one place may spin off completely unrelated debates as a consequence--and so they seem unrelated sometimes. Just my 2 cents from watching how 12 step programs *avoid* this as much as they can by avoiding outside issues that don't further the group goal.
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Post by moggyfan on Jun 26, 2010 16:16:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Y4O. In the immortal words of Rodney King, , "Why can't we all just get along?" You know what? I actually believe we can :-)
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Jun 26, 2010 16:43:26 GMT -5
"Moggy, I simply don't believe you had never had someone in your life *before you got here* tell you "Just go do it". " Y4O & cc: Well, believe it because that *is* what happened and you know, it lit a fire under me. In fact, it is one of the reasons I found this place. I really don't know why some folks cannot accept that an approach that does not work for them CAN AND DOES work for others. I have no problem understanding why some people need more gentle encouragement. Why can you (and others) not understand the inverse? Why do you believe that someone who is more blunt and/or challenging than you wish to be is acting out of bad motives? How could you **possibly** know that? Going to believe it now Moggy. Thanks. Helps me to know that about you, appreciate you sharing that. Haha except now my problem is that I want to know more about you! PS Aside from the topic of what works for one may not work for another--I still believe that debating outside issues will always have group consequences, and that they may not logically be in the if a then b. Debate in one place may spin off completely unrelated debates as a consequence--and so they seem unrelated sometimes. Just my 2 cents from watching how 12 step programs *avoid* this as much as they can by avoiding outside issues that don't further the group goal. Thank you, Moggy, for everything you said. What works for one person may not work for another and just because someone is being more direct or blunt than another person is comfortable with does not mean the person being direct is working with questionable motives. Frankly, that kind of thinking is questionable. As for debates popping up on this board, it's going to happen. We are not cyborgs or pod people--we are human individuals. To expect every single member of this board to compartmentalize their feelings while reading and responding to every post is beyond unrealistic. We all have hot buttons, whether it's children or animals or the enviroment or whatever--pick one--and when those issues come up, even if it's on a thread that initially dealt with squalor, people will sometimes have strong reactions. And to expect every single thread that veers off in a different direction that may not deal with squalor to be moved to By-ways is insanity. The moderators would be overwhelmed. If a thread is upsetting you or not helping you or going in a direction you don't like, whether it deals with squalor or not, simply choose to read another thread. Just because a thread is upsetting you, not helping you, or you simply don't like it, doesn't mean it's upsetting or not helping other people.
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Post by yearning4order on Jun 26, 2010 17:20:29 GMT -5
"As for debates popping up on this board, it's going to happen. We are not cyborgs or pod people--we are human individuals. To expect every single member of this board to compartmentalize their feelings while reading and responding to every post is beyond unrealistic. We all have hot buttons, whether it's children or animals or the enviroment or whatever--pick one--and when those issues come up, even if it's on a thread that initially dealt with squalor, people will sometimes have strong reactions. And to expect every single thread that veers off in a different direction that may not deal with squalor to be moved to By-ways is insanity. The moderators would be overwhelmed."
You're assuming some extremes here, including that I am suggesting anyone should be a pod person. The examples I've seen in life include people simply saying "Yeah that's an outside issue". In practice this could then mean if people want to discuss, they can move their topic. I actually didn't suggest that mods should have to do that. *We* should be considering that as a group and take some personal accountability for it. 12 step programs have no problem working with that as a guiding principle for group harmony--because they recognize group harmony leads to larger numbers of folks receiving help.
*Your hot button*, and *my hot button*, if it's unrelated to squalor, doesn't actually help the group, and in fact it may harm the group. So taking our own hot buttons, starting another thread in byways and linking to the "spawning" thread with a statement that "further discussion on the side issue can go to this link", that can actually work.
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Jun 26, 2010 17:25:50 GMT -5
I think the spawning thread is a good idea.
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Post by Script on Jun 26, 2010 17:26:04 GMT -5
We all have hot buttons, whether it's children or animals or the enviroment or whatever--pick one--and when those issues come up, even if it's on a thread that initially dealt with squalor, people will sometimes have strong reactions. To all our dear friends, members, guests, trolls, lurkers, visitors, newbies, oldies [that's me in more ways than one]: The time has come for us now to close discussion on this topic. Each of us, as Ms Dragon has pointed out, has 'hot buttons'. This is not the same as my ongoing-cluttered-kitchen-hot-spot. I mean simply this: we are all individuals, and what helps one may not help another. If this thread bothers you in any way, please recognize that human language, grammar, syntax is finite and not perfect. Whatever we tried to express may or may not have been done 'to perfection'. But, as we learn to accept the limitations of our own abilities, so it is time to accept, collectively, the limitations of the ideas and expressions of the Moderators, who are doing as best they can. The other mods are occupied right now, but we had discussed the continuation of this dialogue already. We were, in many ways, relieved when the thread moved off the Front Page. We also understand that people feel that they might still have 'one more thing' to say. Be that as it may, enough is enough, for now at least. I am one of the persons who is ultra-alert to anything that is remotely suggestive of 'enabling'. Why? As the adult-child-of-an-alcoholic father, I saw the terrible toll on my family that came from covering up and being nice and trying to make peace. Perhaps I am ultra-sensitive here; such is life. Many of our members appreciate the various wake-up calls that are expressed on our forums. If you are one of the people who are intimated by various strong languages and postings, I apologize to you. There are many limitations to a discussion board, where nuances of tone, facial expression and atmosphere will be lost, compared to a face-to-face dialogue. The Mods recognize that it is important that there be dialogue, not just monologue. We appreciate all who took the time to speak to this topic: here, privately, in chat, wherever and whatever your points of view. Thank you ALL for your ongoing interest in our community. xxoo from Script on behalf of the Moderators
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