osiris1
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Joined: July 2010
Posts: 4
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Post by osiris1 on Jul 24, 2010 10:57:08 GMT -5
My brother and his wife have 5 children ages 16 to 8. I stopped by to watch the kids while they were out of town, and I was horrified to see the living conditions. The floors are covered in toys and garbage, the bedroom for the youngest two kids was filled with trash, toys and dog poo (I had to force open the door- no one actually sleeps in there). My youngest niece (10) sleeps in a room that has dog poo and rotting food containers all over her bedroom floor, accompanied by a rotten stench and a hoard of fruit flies. All of the children were horribly embarrassed by the state of things (my youngest nephew pointed out, "It shouldn't be this way, should it?"). My brother blames his wife. My sister in law blames the kids, and nothing gets cleaned until they go out of town and my mom and I try desperately to rid the house of trash and feces. At that point, my sister in law gets furious and doesn't speak to us for months. I can't stand seeing these kids live like this, but my sister in law refuses to let anyone help. My brother has no problem letting other people clean up the mess (which is probably more annoying than anything) but won't make an effort to clean things himself. Someone please tell me: What on earth should I do? This has been going on for years, and the house is getting worse and worse. I'm afraid if something doesn't happen, the kids will get taken away by CPS.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 11:39:20 GMT -5
It sounds like my house right now, except without the rotting food. I would think that it just slowly got out of hand and she's overwhelmed and embarrassed. She may feel that you are judging her by offering to clean it. If I were you, I would tell her "I know somebody whose house has gotten like this, and it's not her fault, it got out of hand and she doesn't know where to start and is overwhelmed and depressed over it. I know you don't want it like this, and the kids and husband don't help with it, and you shouldn't have to do it all, so what can I do to help you get it back like you want it?" Mine got the way it is due to a renovation and me being gone for a couple of months and my 16yo and her boyfriend doing the "housekeeping". Right now, my younger kids are at my MIL's on the lake for the summer, and my older daughter is in Orlando with her bf and his sisters and their bf's. My husband and I are at my Moms (across the road) and we are going to start on the cleaning and putting back together. Talk to your sister in law about it, and be sympathetic. Even if you don't believe it, act like and talk to her like it's not her fault. It really might have gotten out of hand and she may be so depressed and overwhelmed that she just doesn't see the point in cleaning it or doesn't know how or where to start. Nobody wants to live in that, and nobody chooses to. It's honestly something that just happens and you feel like you can't get out from under it. It's extremely overwhelming. I'm a neat freak by nature and usually you can eat off my floors, so the state of my house right now drives me crazy and I'm so overwhelmed, depressed, guilty, ashamed etc that I'm just paralyzed about doing anything about it. It's also very embarrassing for others to come in and do it. If she lets you help her, don't make comments like "how could you let this happen?" or "Oh my God look at this!". Just keep those to yourself and help her clean. She knows it's there and that it's that bad. After you get it clean, suggest that she write some house rules and post them, that everybody must follow. Things like kids must clean their rooms every day before they play. Clean to her satisfaction, not to the kids satisfaction (hugely different standard there, trust me). No food in bedrooms. All dirty clothes must go in the hamper. Pick up the bathroom after showers. Put up all clean laundry the day it's washed, folded and put on their beds. Pick up the mes after homework. All dishes go in the sink, and kids take turns washing dishes and putting them away. All shoes go in a central location when they take them off, not in the middle of the floor. Throw away the coke cans when they are done with them. For the older kids, no friends allowed to smoke in the house (my older daughter and her friends smoke and they get ashes everywhere and don't empty ashtrays, and my 15yo son has friends who smoke and are hiding it and I've found cigarette butts hidden in his room and yeah I know it's probably him too so only adults are allowed to smoke in the house) Once it's clean and the family sits down and the rules are spelled out, that will give her an advantage and she will be ahead instead of behind. People who live in squalor don't want to live in it, we know that it's there and that it shouldn't be and we don't want it there, we just can't do anything about it because it's too much. To me, it feels like trying to empty an olympic swimming pool with a bucket. It really does. Not only trying to empty it with a bucket, because I could actually start that and work on it, but I would have nowhere to pour out the bucket of water, and I don't have a bucket and no money to buy a bucket and have two broken arms and nobody to help me carry the bucket. It really feels like that. Enable her to clean it. Support her. She beats herself up enough in her mind about it, and when others comment on it, it just adds to it. She does feel like this "happened to her" not that she allowed it. Or that she did it. If you sit down with her and are sympathetic and not judgemental and tell her you know she didn't cause it and doesn't want it and that you do understand, she may be open to your help. Ask her if she wants to tell you how it happened. Listen to her, don't point out what she could have done as it was happening, she knows what she could have done and didn't do and beats herself up over that as it is. I hope this helps, and please feel free to message me, and please post about your progress with her. Just talk to her. Even if you don't like her, and even if you are judging her inside, don't show it. Listen to her. Understand that it can happen to anybody. It happened to me and for years I was Donna freakin' Reed. My house was perfect. I ironed sheets. Everything was done, organized, put away, clean. For 23 years it was. Then there was the renovation, then I was gone, now my house is hell. Well, the devil would say it was too dirty for him right now . So, it can happen to anybody. Depression plays a major role in it for me and a lot of people, and the dirtier your house gets, the more depressed you get and the more depressed you get the less able you are to clean your house so it's a circle. Depression for me, is more apathy than it is sadness. It's also an inablity to do anything you need to do. I honestly cannot think or decide how to begin and how to do it, plus, what's the use in it? That's why I have a game plan and my husbands help right now. Let us know how it's going. Good luck.
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Post by Celeste on Jul 24, 2010 11:42:32 GMT -5
You aren't going to like this answer: There isn't much you can do until your SIL decides to change. You can't MAKE her. Even if you managed to clean up the mess, she is likely revert after you left.
This website is primarily for people willing to clean up their own mess. Is there any way your SIL could take a look at Stepping Out of Squalor for herself? Does she have internet? She might be more willing to address it if she was working with people with similar issues.
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Post by messymimi on Jul 24, 2010 12:24:15 GMT -5
As Celeste has said, if she doesn't want to change, not much will help.
UTBN's approach may work. It may show that she does want to change, that she doesn't like it this way, and it may help you to help her.
If you can get her to realize that there are people out here who will support her in the effort to get it done, she might be willing.
Does she resent when the kids clean? If she is not ready to change, but they are, you might be able to show them how to work at it, and to learn to keep it up better.
I hope she is ready, and will let you work with her. The whole family deserves better.
messymimi
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 12:45:36 GMT -5
I'm afraid if something doesn't happen, the kids will get taken away by CPS.
No one's probably going to like what I have to say.
But it's one thing for adults to live this way, and another to inflict it on children. And you said it's been going on for years--why? Everyone thinks it's okay for kids to live in filth, for years? That's unacceptable.
Yes, be as gentle as you can when tryign to make her understand that you just want to help. Point out this website and other resources. Use the suggestions in this thread. That might be enough, who knows. Be kind. '
But I also think that while being compassionate and kind, you also must insist that the rotting food and feces be cleaned up immediately. If nothing happens immediately, then I think you should point out that it's no place for kids to live and if they can't get it to a sanitary level right away authorities need to be involved.
Offer to help, if you want (and I would say please do, in this case, do everything you can) but explain that it has to change. There are 5 children living in filth and it shouldn't be allowed to continue. For health reasons alone, they need to not live in that environment. But beyong physical health, there are mental health issues at stake for these kids.
They need to take a day and remove feces and filth, rotting food and other dangers from the house. There is no excuse for them not to do this. That is the minimum that must be done immediately. The clutter and mess can be dealt with over time, though there has to be progress. But kids sleeping in rooms with rotten food and crap--that can be stopped instantly. I don't care how stubborn they are, they're selfish to allow this because one's afraid the other won't pitch in.
You said your sister-in-law refuses to let anyone help? Tell her too bad--this is child neglect and endangerment, and if the parents really, really refuse to make a change, then the authorities probably should be notified to force them into it.
DCFS doesn't remove kids for fun. When there are situations like that, the kids should NOT be there. But there's no need to get them involved instantly. If it were my relative, you can sure as h@ll bet I would explain to them that calling them would be step #2 if they didn't allow someone to help immediately.
The idea of the authorities getting involved will mostly likely spur them into action--it would me. And if it doesn't prompt them to clean up the unsanitary conditions, even if the actuall clutter goes more slowly, then do you really think the kids should be there?
My brother has no problem letting other people clean up the mess (which is probably more annoying than anything) but won't make an effort to clean things himself.
Maybe it's the brother you should talk to. I mean, explain that unless he's willing to lose his kids (a NEIGHBOR or TEACHER could call and give them NO time to try to fix it before the cops show up, after all) that he'd better change his tune. Not everyone is as loving as you are in trying to make a change. They should be grateful that you're trying to figure out what to do to keep the kids out of the system. They could easily lose that opportunity with just one random phone call from someone passing by and seeing in the front door or noticing a smell or dirty clothes on one of the kids.
I hope you help them, both by making it clear that it's unacceptable and helping them overcome it in any way that's possible for all of you.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 12:51:44 GMT -5
I can see how she may feel with regards to the kids. My kids complain that our house is messy, but they are the ones who made the mess and do a halfway job of cleaning when I do finally get them to clean, because they don't know how really. I've done everything for them their whole lives. They know how to wash clothes and cook, but that's all. They make a bigger mess trying to clean up than they do just being messy!
If she's in that situation, she may not resent when the kids clean, I know I wouldn't I think they *should clean* because they *made the mess*, but I get ticked off because they simply move the mess piles from their room to another room! They just clear their room and make a big mess in another room that they don't clean up. I let them take a break and then they disappear until dinner time!
She may feel that she shouldn't have to clean the mess because she may have told them to clean up or not to do this or that and they do it anyway and she may feel helpless. That's how I feel, but I'm the only one who can do this, so I have to.
What really gets me is when I make my kids help me clean, they all fuss and argue with me that they shouldn't have to pick up Gayle's dishes, or Jason's shoes, or Paige's sunflower seeds! I tell them that I don't make any messes but I have to pick up everybody else's so they should just do it and hush, but that just leads to them arguing and fighting amongst themselves, so I end up with no help at all.
I really think that there may be more going on there and in this womans mind than the poster knows, and that she should be given a chance to talk about her side of it without feeling like someone is judging her or looking down on her. It might be just the thing she needs to be able to empower herself to take charge of her own house.
Or, she may really not care about the mess. My mother never really cared about our mess when I was growing up, and would get ticked off when I cleaned it. So, ya never know.
Mary
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osiris1
New Member
Joined: July 2010
Posts: 4
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Post by osiris1 on Jul 24, 2010 13:04:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice, it all really helps. I'm trying to be understanding of the situation (not easy) but trying to make the point that something has to change.
usedtobeneat, thanks for the perspective- it helps to tame some of the rage I feel and put things in a workable frame of mind. Celeste, that's a great idea. I'll forward her the website once she cools off some. Messimimi- I hope she's ready too. clutterfree, "No one's probably going to like what I have to say." On the contrary, I agree with you completely.
Its not going to be easy or pleasant, but its definitely time this issue is addressed. Thanks again for your input everyone!
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 13:08:15 GMT -5
I wanted to add, that you can enlist the kids to help. If they're embarrassed by it, I think they'd be happy to help you. Once the feces and rotting food is up, they can help put things in boxes and bags.
I've never been a fan of the Hoarders show in general, but I think their method of sweep in and clear it out is especially ideal when there are children involved. It leaves a lot of stuff to sort through afterwards, but getting the conditions right for the kids and family is the priority. Ugh, this kind of thing breaks my heart and makes me upset.
I hope it all works out.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 13:18:43 GMT -5
Cluterfree brought up some good points. One thing that just occured to me though, is if the kids are embarrassed by it, some of them are certainly old enough to get a garbage bag and pick up the dog poop and the garbage and throw it away. Why don't they do that? Kids over 10 years old (and even younger, really) are old enough to throw something in the garbage when they see it there. If all the kids were under 8 or 9, I would agree that they are helpless, but those kids don't have to have permission to throw away dog crap or rotting food! It's not *just* the mother who is responsible here. Why should it be all on her? The kids are embarrassed and complain about it, so why can't they even do the minimum and pick up the crap? I understand that they can't do a deep cleaning or even a very good cleaning (if they are like mine, they really don't know how, as it was all done for them all their lives) but those kids aren't helpless or blameless (the 5yo and really young kids are exempt of course) but those older kids who know better are just as much to blame as the mother for leaving dog crap in the floor.
That woman isn't the only one in that house with the ability to pick up garbage or put a dish in the sink or hang clothes in the closet! It's a problem with the entire family, not just with the mother. Talk to the kids and tell them to get on it and start cleaning too. Tell them to tell their mother they need help with some things, and hopefully she will jump in and help. I'd be willing to bet that the whole mess isn't *her* mess only. It took the whole family to make the mess and so the whole family should chip in and clean it. When my 16yo gets back from Florida, she's gonna have a lot of work waiting on her, stuff that she messed up, she's cleaning up!
I got a tad ticked off thinking about this, and I do agree with you Clutterfree that kids shouldn't be forced to live in that, but except for the really young ones, they are old enough to know to pick up after the dog and to throw stuff away. Unless they are tied up and locked in a closet at home, or forbidden from picking up dog crap or throwing away an old hamburger, the older kids bear an almost equal amount of responsibility for letting that stuff just sit there.
It's not all on the mother.
Mary
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 13:27:32 GMT -5
Correction to my precious post! . I reread the original post and the kids are 8 - 16 years old. I was thinking the youngest was 5. Ok, they are *all* old enough to help and do things and know that dog crap shouldn't be there. Maybe someone should explain to *them* that DHR could come and take them and they won't be happy in some foster home that are stuck in until their mom gets the house cleaned back up and jumps through all the hoops they want her to before she can get the kids back. Those kids know better and are just waiting for the mother to do it. The husband can do something too and is just waiting for the wife to do it. Even the relatives are putting it all on her, so I can *so* understand her resistance to it. I'm not fussing at ya'll at all, but it seems to me that the OP and the rest of the family is upset with this woman for not cleaning up after 6 people who are very capable of cleaning up after themselves. No wonder she gets mad! If people come in and clean up after her family and have the attitude of "well since you wouldn't clean up after them, we have to" and nobody gets on the kids and the husband for not doing it...... Do you see what I'm saying? The kids shouldn't have to live in that, but they aren't victims by any means. They are old enough to know better and to do something, and obviously just aren't. Everybody in that house is just as responsible for that mess as she is, and maybe if you present it to her, (and them) like that, you might see some change. I know that if somebody came to me and blamed me for the mess in my house (I haven't even been there for two months and it got like this) I would be furious and would refuse to do anything. I would get mad if someone came in and did it for me with the attitude of "well, since you are too l*zy/no good/sorry/trashy/neglectful/uncaring/etc to do it, we had to" and didn't put any blame on anyone else in the house, I wouldn't talk to them for months either. Put the blame where it belongs. On everyone. Yes, she should have stayed on top of it, but she isn't the only able person in the house. Mary
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 13:27:53 GMT -5
Mary,
I agree with you wholeheartedly that's it's not just the mother to blame. I think it's equally her and the husband. And I think kids can absolutely take some responsibility. But you said they're not victims, and I do think they are. The OP said this has been going on for years, so they've been raised in this. I think that removes the blame.
Kids are products of their environment. And if everytime they've tried to do something it has been met with anger, then they're going to stop trying. I don't think I'd place as much blame on the kids.
If the mother feels incredible guilt, which is almost certain, and won't speak to a sister-in-law for months who has just picked up poop and food out of the house, that's born out of embarrassment that leads to anger. What if a child tried to clean up a pile of papers? The mother would possibly feel the same.
I had this issue with my husband. If he started running dishwater, I just knew it wasn't because he really wanted to help. It was a spiteful thing, to show me. Not that he didn't it often, mind you. But I also felt embarassed that I hadn't done them and guilty and a whole host of other bad things. And I expressed that, in one way or another.
If she does that with everyone, the kids are going to learn not to rock the boat. I think they could quickly learn to take a little responsibility for picking up after themselves. But I don't feel like it's fair to lay equal blame at their feet either.
I also think that the important thing right now is that it doesn't matter who is ultimately at fault as long as things change going forward.
Maybe someone should explain to *them* that DHR could come and take them and they won't be happy in some foster home that are stuck in until their mom gets the house cleaned back up and jumps through all the hoops they want her to before she can get the kids back
I think it's all right to make a 16-year-old aware that it's vital that things change, but I think bringing up foster care to the younger children would just terrify them. Older kids already generally understand the way of the world at least enough to know that people could come and force the parents into cleaning up. But I think even a converation like this with a 16-year-old has to be done carefully so as not to practically scar a kid with fear. In fact, I don't think I would do it. I'd just stress that it was very important for things to change, etc. without bringing up authorities, unless the older kids were in clear denial and rebelliousness and with a complete "I don't care" attitude.
It's definitely a situation that has to be played by ear, with no one right answer.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 13:33:00 GMT -5
I grew up in terrible squalor. My mother is one of those who didn't mind it. She didn't want me to clean anything and would get furious if I did. By the time I was about 12, I knew it shouldn't be that way and I cleaned it up anyway as best I could. I got rid of as much nasty as I could, but couldn't do anything about the clutter. She was mad at me, sure. But she was mad at me for the $500 phone bill that time my friend Windy went to St Louis for the summer and I talked to her for hours every day. She was mad at me for cutting up her good sheets for a school project. She was mad at me for bringing home three cats. Parents get mad. Kids do things to make them mad. Why should this be any different? The OP said that the kids said "It shouldn't be like this, should it?" so they know. They have been to friends houses where it's clean. Unless they are little angels and do everything their mother says when she says do it, she gets mad at them for things. Why should this be any different? If the mother was a clean freak that wouldn't stop them from making a mess. Why should the mom being messy (if it is in fact the mother who is the messy one) stop them from making a clean? Mary (Who is a cleanie with a messy family and going crazy over it - so it's an "issue" !)
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 13:37:12 GMT -5
But the OP said it's been going on for years. They weren't always older children, but were raised in this. I think that removes a lot of blame. They were taught this. They're just used to it, and used to the responsible adults not doing anything about it. I think it's great that you cleaned and overcame it, despite your mother's apathy. But you are probably exceptional! Really, I think in most cases the kids would not take charge the way you did, and I think that really they couldn't be expected to do so and blamed if they didn't. So while I don't agree completely, I think they are victims, I think it's also time to teach them responsibility for their own sakes and get them involved, absolutely.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 13:40:53 GMT -5
I was raised in it too. I cleaned up as best I could when I was 12. I was nobody's victim by that age. Unless those kids never left the house and never saw anything different, they know it's not how it's supposed to be, and they know they can and should help do something about it.
I don't know how it started. It could be that the mother had a nervous breakdown or some problem where she couldn't clean and it got out of hand. Or, she really may be like my mom and just not care. There is no telling. However, they are old enough now to be able to help do something about it. I'm not putting all the blame on the kids, but I know what kids can do in a situation like that because I did it myself.
Mary
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 13:46:50 GMT -5
However, they are old enough now to be able to help do something about it
I absolutely agree with that.
I'm with you, Mary. I remember when I, as a young teen, cleaned our bathroom. The floor around the toilet was black, and it had been that way for I don't know how long. There was thick dust on the radiator next to the toilet, and the handles of the cabinet about the toilet, which was white, had big brown circles around them. But I'd seen my friend's bathrooms and they look very clean (except one, whose mom was a hoarder). And I took it upon myself to clean it. I took a long time, but the floor was clean, the toilet, the radiator--I cleaned the whole bathroom over the course of a day, I think. And while the linoleum was old and stuff looked crappy because it was broken down, it was clean and I was so proud--and so angry that it hadn't been done in so long. But I did it often enough that the floor never got black and greasy looking again.
I was never assigned chores, but did things like that on my own because they bothered me.
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