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Post by homesteph on Jul 24, 2010 13:51:03 GMT -5
Mary, I agree with you wholeheartedly that's it's not just the mother to blame. I think it's equally her and the husband. And I think kids can absolutely take some responsibility. But you said they're not victims, and I do think they are. The OP said this has been going on for years, so they've been raised in this. I think that removes the blame. Kids are products of their environment. And if everytime they've tried to do something it has been met with anger, then they're going to stop trying. I don't think I'd place as much blame on the kids. If the mother feels incredible guilt, which is almost certain, and won't speak to a sister-in-law for months who has just picked up poop and food out of the house, that's born out of embarrassment that leads to anger. What if a child tried to clean up a pile of papers? The mother would possibly feel the same. I had this issue with my husband. If he started running dishwater, I just knew it wasn't because he really wanted to help. It was a spiteful thing, to show me. Not that he didn't it often, mind you. But I also felt embarassed that I hadn't done them and guilty and a whole host of other bad things. And I expressed that, in one way or another. If she does that with everyone, the kids are going to learn not to rock the boat. I think they could quickly learn to take a little responsibility for picking up after themselves. But I don't feel like it's fair to lay equal blame at their feet either. I also think that the important thing right now is that it doesn't matter who is ultimately at fault as long as things change going forward. Maybe someone should explain to *them* that DHR could come and take them and they won't be happy in some foster home that are stuck in until their mom gets the house cleaned back up and jumps through all the hoops they want her to before she can get the kids backI think it's all right to make a 16-year-old aware that it's vital that things change, but I think bringing up foster care to the younger children would just terrify them. Older kids already generally understand the way of the world at least enough to know that people could come and force the parents into cleaning up. But I think even a converation like this with a 16-year-old has to be done carefully so as not to practically scar a kid with fear. In fact, I don't think I would do it. I'd just stress that it was very important for things to change, etc. without bringing up authorities, unless the older kids were in clear denial and rebelliousness and with a complete "I don't care" attitude. It's definitely a situation that has to be played by ear, with no one right answer. Well said, and thank you Mary, you beat me to it. There are a lot of unknowns here. The mess is a symptom, not the entire problem in itself. As the wife of a man who grew up in a severe hoarding/squalor situation, I can assure you that in no way can, or should, a child bear the weight of the responsibility to do what their parents cannot or will not. The situation is the expression of the family dynamic, and it is not the responsibility of the child to cure that, and attempts to do so are often unwelcome. Unfortunately in some cases, when a child tries to change the status quo the repercussions can make the situation worse for him or her. It is not always just about the poop. Note that in Hoarding: Buried Alive shows bring family therapists along with the professional organizers and Got Junk crew when it is needed.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 14:04:37 GMT -5
Oh, I wasnt ever assigned chores either. Nobody in my family did anything or ever expected me to do anything at all. I was spoiled, I was bought everything I wanted, but it all got ruined pretty quickly because of where we lived. I never really gave my kids chores either, because I did everything for them. I felt that since I am a housewife, that it was my job. I didn't do this out of obligation or guilt, but because I wanted to and felt that this was my thing, not theirs and I wanted to do it. Also, when they did try and do things that I told them to do, I had to go back behind them and do it my way. So, cleaning isn't something they know how to do. A funny story about this; a few years ago my oldest daughter was assigned a paper to write. It was supposed to be about a chore she does at home, how she plans it, how she does it, etc. She sat there, and sat there, and sat there thinking. My husband asked her what she was having trouble with and she told us her assignment. We all sat there and thought and thought, and finally she said "I don't do ANYTHING!" I told her "Well, you do clean the unicon stables". I know that it's my fault for doing everything for them, but I really enjoyed it. I would get up at 5 when my husbands clock went off and start the muffins and do the straightening up. I'd go in my oldest son's room and pick up and straighten up in there, and in the other kids rooms, but his was the worst. He stayed up later than us and there were cans, and plates and empty bags and dirty clothes in there. It took all of ten minutes to straighten up, and this was before he woke up. He was a teenager so of course it was messy. He used to say "I go to sleep at night and my room's trashed and when I wake up it's clean. The tooth fairy used to come while I was asleep but now it's the clean fairy" My husband said "Like the tooth fairy, the clean fairy is your Mama, boy". ! Mary
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Post by homesteph on Jul 24, 2010 14:13:34 GMT -5
...Just spoke to my DH about this. He asked me to share that once while his parents were away he tried to clean up the mess at least enough to get small areas functional. In no time at all it was right back the way it was before, but worse.
Osiris1, I am so glad you want to help your brother and his family, and I think it is awesome that you came here to try to learn more.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 14:31:56 GMT -5
Homesteph, I don't know how to quote yet, so I'm going to try and address something you said.
No, a child shouldn't have to bear the responsibility of what a parent can't or won't do. However, a 16 year old is old enough to get married and have kids in many states and there are a lot of 16 year olds (14 and 15 year olds where I live even) who are own their own in their own place with their bf or gf and a baby. The 16yo is certainly old enough to pick up the nasty stuff.
I know hoarding and nasty are two different things. Hoarding itself isn't nasty, it's just the stuff that ends up under the hoard that can be. The OP mentioned poop, rotting food, garbage, toys all over. The kids can and should (just like the mother and father can and should) pick up the nasty stuff and put the toys somewhere and throw away the garbage.
What's wrong with the father? Why can he not do something? Why is nobody furious with him too? As I said, I don't know the situation, but I know situations that I have been in, and before my house has gotten bad when I was sick, away, depressed, or had a whole family of sick people to take care of and couldn't get to the house and it got bad and it would take me days of mental prep to get it back to how it was supposed to be. So, maybe the mother just feels that she can't. Or she may not care, I don't know. But that 16yo lives there too, and should at least have some responsibility for picking up the nasty stuff. I guess my point is that you can't say "Oh those poor kids ages 8 - 16 who are forced to live with that, they can't help it". No, they couldn't throw away hoarded stuff, but they can and should pick up the dog poop and rotting food and garbage. They do know better, as does the mother and father, but if everybody sits around there waiting for somebody else to pick up up, and they all want it picked up, it's never going to get done.
Kids can actually assume more responsibility than you would imagine. This is a true story here. I told ya'll about how we lived and that I got tired of the nasty and picked it up, but couldn't do anything about the clutter, well I had a lot more responsibility than that for about a year. My mother and father divorced when I was a baby and we lived with my grandparents. My grandfather was crazy and a drunk and my grandmother was like my mother, not much caring about a mess. She was marginally cleaner than my mother, but she was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 10. By the time I was 11 she had metastatic bone cancer. She had radiation and chemo etc. She held on for another year, and my mother brought her home. My mother was a nurse and was Assistant Director of Nursing at that point (later Director) and worked long hours. Our house was so bad that she wouldn't let a private nurse come in for my grandmother. When I was 12 years old I had the responsibility of taking care of my dying grandmother. I had never been treated like a child, and was expected to understand things like an adult and so I did. My mother had lists of meds and food and urine output that I had to fill out. I was responsible at 12 years old for getting up and making my grandmother breakfast, charting what she ate, giving her meds, and I had to give her Pantapon shots several times a day. Pantapon is a very strong opiate that they used to give for pain. Stronger than Dilaudid, which didn't help her any longer. One mistake and I could have killed her, but this was explained to me, and my mother taught me how to give a shot, etc. This was preferable to them than having a stranger come into the house. By then it wasn't nasty, just piled up and messy and cluttered. I also kept the nasty out of the house, in addition to taking care of my grandmother and calming my grandfather down when he got drunk in the evenings.
So, I guess I have trouble wrapping my mind around the concept that those kids are victims and helpless where the poop, garbage, toys, and rotting food is concerned.
Mary
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 24, 2010 14:59:27 GMT -5
Welcome--one thing you should know when you solicit our advice is that you will also get to hear replies based upon our own past issues. So it's important to evaluate things in the light of your own circumstance and trust your calm, intuitive sense.
In some respects this sounds much like having an active alcoholic or drug addict in the family. I would very much recommend Al-Anon as a resource for those affected by the self-destructive and/or self-defeating behaviors of another.
There have been some good suggestions so far. While at a certain age kids certainly *can* clean, I think I also fall on the side of folks noting that it's not the child's responsibility (no matter how old) to try to shoulder the burden of an unhealthy family dynamic and "fix" the outward symptoms of it.
I would definitely suggest to your SIL to view our site. She will find others here who have been through the exact same struggle, and if she truly wants to change, she will find our support and encouragement tends to be quite gentle and effective.
The husband should be encouraged to view our site as well, because not making any attempt to clean, although he will allow others to clean is just as much of a problem as actively discouraging others to clean. It's still living in squalor and it sounds like a powerfully destructive family dynamic at work.
I lived in fear of my child being removed from the home due to the condition of my house, and we weren't quite at the level of what you are describing. Although letting a loved one know that it has come to a point where as a concerned family member you are nearing the point of calling childrens' protective services, I think as an extended family member, it is important to ask yourself this question, "If even one of these kids were hurt as a result of the squalor, did I say and do everything I should have?"
That's *not* a rallying cry for you to go way beyond your limits (which it sounds like you have done time and again already)--but just a way to reflect on what your next indicated right action might be.
Good luck to you, and to the family. Let them know, if they want to change, we're here to share the help we have received.
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 24, 2010 15:05:41 GMT -5
Kids can actually assume more responsibility than you would imagine. Just because they can, doesn't mean they should. From my perspective you never should have been put in that position, and just because you were and you survived doesn't mean it's an ideal that will be shared by others or should be recommended. This is part of what I meant about how our advice also comes colored by our experiences, and yes, our wounds.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 15:07:16 GMT -5
I want to clarify what I said earlier, so I don't get misunderstood. I am not in any way suggesting that the entire responsibility fall on the kids to clean the house. I am suggesting that the responsibility for picking up the poop and the garbage and the rotting food in ther rooms fall on them. I am suggesting that the responsibility for picking that stuff up in common areas fall on everybody. Whoever sees it first, pick it up.
I'm not at all talking about hoarding and clutter. Not the stuff that the parents might want to keep that may or may not be garbage, but the actual garbage, or as I call it "the nasty stuff". I think that anybody walking past garbage, rotting food, or poop has the responsibility to pick it up.
I wasn't saying to make the kids do it all, I was saying that since they sound like they are unhappy with it and embarrassed by it and know it shouldn't be there, why have they not picked up the obvious nasty stuff? The mother nor father sounds like they are complaining, but the kids said something about it, so why have they not picked up the really nasty things? That was my only point.
Mary
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 24, 2010 15:10:06 GMT -5
And I think that really has a lot to do with why you don't feel the children are blameless, and others have a different opinion. It sounds like you a rough row to hoe from the beginning, and undoubtedly having to be as strong as that made you more mentally prepared to take over cleaning responsibilities, etc. Please don't think I'm arguing with you. I think we're both right in our own way. But these kids have probably been treated like kids and not had that kind of adult-like responsibility that shaped you into the strong and amazingly responsible 12-year-old you were. I also think that at least most of us here think the husband is equally responsible. But very often, the suggestions are aimed toward the woman because, frankly, it usually falls to her to fix the problem. At least i think in most of our cases, that's our experience. But he is at fault, just as much, I believe. One thing, though,whether one holds the children partly to blame or not, I think it's important to get kids to help and start teaching them to do so without making them feel blamed or ashamed. And what a story about your grandma--it's horrific that those things were thrust upon you. I didn't have to take care of mine, but when I was 10 she was in our living room, which henceforth became off limits to me for the post part, dying of cancer in a hospital bed. It was an awful time. That has, in part, shaped me into who I am today, for better or worse. why have they not picked up the obvious nasty stuffFor the same reasons as the parents, or because they were never taught? I really think that given your background, it doesn't make any sense to you that a kid would walk by a pile of poop and leave it, because you wouldn't have. But I'm sure the house embarrasses the mom and she walks by those piles too, feeling embarrassed, overwhelmed, and maybe even wanting to change it. But she doesn't, and she's an adult. That's the example the kids have always had, and some kids are not going to take it upon themselves to do it for any number of reasons. Anyway, I think it's amazing and remarkable that you got through your childhood and took such responsibility! And I hope these kids can be taught if nothing else than they can affect their environment without being made to feel that it's their fault. And just to avoid sounding self-righteous or something, which I absolutely do not mean to do, I have no doubt that my daughter would avoid picking up such a mess and wait for me to do it instead. If I asked her, she'd do it. But to take it upon herself to pick up smelly dog poop? Maybe if it was old, and she could point out that she did it while asking for something later. Otherwise, it would fall to good old mom.
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 15:43:18 GMT -5
I'm actually glad I was able to take care of my grandmother. It made me feel good that I was trusted and treated like an adult. I never felt like a child, so this confirmed in my mind that I was just as "good" as an adult for some things. When I was growing up, my mother took me to work with her a lot at the hospital. She was in administration then, not clinical nursing, so from the time I was about 9 or 10, I'd spend my summers and weekends in her office, and she and her secretary always found me things that I could do to help. I really enjoyed it. Sorting things, filing things, stapling things, typing things. I had fun. Free child labor ! However I loved it. I learned a lot too, about medical things, and when I had nothing else to do I sat around and read articles in my mothers nursing journals and she gave me a highlighter pen to highlight the things I wanted her to explain to me, and she would. So, going into this thing with my grandmother I did have a somewhat working knowlege of medical things. When my mother told me about my grandmothers cancer she was up front with me and told me exactly what was going on and the prognosis and what to expect, just like she would explain it to an adult. I understood the disease as best as a lay person can I suppose, knew what the drugs were and were supposed to do, took her vitals and knew what the normal limits for her were and when to call my mother if they deviated, and enjoyed the responsibility. I didn't enjoy that she was sick at all, but I enjoyed having the responsibility and being treated as an adult. I come from a crazy family and nothing was ever hidden from me. When my Aunt Louise would come over to spend the night because my Uncle Louie was on a drinking binge and hit her (Louie was my grandfathers brother) nobody lied to me about it. I knew what was up. When my grandfather would go on a drinking binge and threaten us or hit my grandmother, I knew what was up and knew we had to go to a neighbors house for the night. It was "normal" for me. I never felt abused or neglected, and I wasn't ever hit by him until I was about 14, and that was for knocking a toaster off the top of the fridge and I left and went to a friends house and told my mother I wouldn't come back until he apologized. He did apologize and didn't hit me again, however he did once get his shotgun and threaten to shoot me (I knew he wouldn't but it really made me mad) because I was listening to Led Zeppelin which he called "jungle music", and again I went to a friends house and stayed there for several days. He used to get his shotgun and threaten us fairly frequently but we knew he wouldn't shoot anybody. He was just drunk. To me, now as an adult, with a normal family life, this sounds crazy and unreal, but back then it was just normal. My friends Windy and Patricia were the only ones allowed to come over to my house and spend the night because they had families that were just as crazy as mine were. Looking back, I wonder how my mother could have possibly lived there with a child, but as I have said, she's nuts. I know that if anybody ever threatened my kids or put us in an unlivable situation that I would take them and leave, but my mother just chose to ignore it and pretend that it was OK. It wasn't just me either. My friend Windy was expected to do as much housework as her mother (her mom was a hoarder but it was a very clean hoarding. everything was wiped down with Pine-Sol, like somehow that would make it ok) and her dad was extremely strict about things that just don't matter. My friend Patricia's mother was in and out of the mental hospital all the time, would go years without washing, leaving her bedroom, or changing her sheets and would have all sorts of delusions, and her father was in his 60s when we were teenagers and would drink all the time and hit her when she back talked him, and her house was piled up with so much junk that it wasnt funny and her kitchen was nasty like mine was. However we kept Patricias room clean, just like we kept Windy's room clean. I didn't have a room of my own, our house had two bedrooms and I shared a room with my mother. My grandfather had a room and my grandmother slept on the couch. So I didn't have my own spot to keep clean and I finally got fed up and got rid of the nasty smelly stuff which made it somewhat better. So, I do know that kids can do more than people think, and if they are truly tired of something, they can change it. I was raised that it was "normal" to live like we did, but I knew better. The same with Windy and Patricia. We all knew that it wasn't normal and we all did what we could to make things better, at least a little bit. That is why I wondered why, if the kids mention it, don't they at least try to do something? Why don't they complain to their mother about it? Kids will complain that they don't have a Wii, or cable, or call waiting, or can't go to Six Flags with their friend, so why wouldn't they complain about the mess if it's bothering them? Of course if the mother is already guilty and depressed, that will just make it worse for her. Or if she doesn't care it will just make her mad at them. I don't know really what the situation is like at the house when nobody is there but family, and I don't know the mom or why she's let this happen. I'm just looking at it through my own experience. I mention the 16yo and why s/he hasn't done something to correct it, but my own 16yo was at our house for the two months that we were at the lake (only 40 miles away, so she wasn't alone alone, and her bf was there with her too) and she made a huge mess in the house. She has the ability to clean it herself but not the skills. I don't excuse her for that but I know it's my fault that she is like that because I did it for her all her life. I've found that kids tend to be the opposite of their parents a lot of times. My mother was messy so I'm a cleanie. I'm a cleanie so my kids are messies. My in laws were cleanies so my husbands a messy. I guess I just expect them to go the opposite way as their parents, but then, not everybody is the same I guess. Mary
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Post by puppybox on Jul 24, 2010 16:00:57 GMT -5
I think it would be worse to be taken from your parents than to live in squalor.
I think it would be worse if someone threatens (warns, whatever) that you might be taken from them- it would make you stressed and fearful ALL THE TIME.
I think the SHAME of living in squalor is worse than the actual living in squalor part. You can help those kids by telling them they are NOT to blame and they should not waste one second on being embarrassed. You can empower the kids by telling nothing is stopping them from cleaning their own rooms. Tell them you'd supply them with whatever they need in terms of supplies and know-how and helping them dealing with their mother's anger, if necessary. You can tell them nothing is stopping them from helping their parents if their parents don't seem to be able to do it on their own. They could clean the bathroom, for example. They can put anything the mother is hoarding and the father is ignoring in the parents bedroom.
Just because YOU have decided the time is now, doesn't mean its going to be now. I'm NOT saying this to be against you. at all. I am on your side, not theirs, really. They are being neglectful and it must be crazy-making for you. They sound immature and defensive and you obviously aren't being unreasonable about it in any way. BUT invading their house won't help. it may make her worse as it will make them more defensive. Its possible you can help them but I don't know how you can. I think you can totally help the kids though. I don't think their being removed from the house by the authorities would help at all, unless the parents are being emotionally abusive to them. Would you be able to take the kids for a week end or a week now and then? the kids could learn how a functional house is run from you. the mom might see that its not (just) the kids that is the problem. She definitely sounds like she has hoarding tendencies. the guy is being sexist. tell him to get off his @$$ and clean something, its not the woman's job, and even if it was, they are his children and by not fixing the situation created by her (as he sees it) he is being Negligent towards his children
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Post by usedtobeneat on Jul 24, 2010 16:18:11 GMT -5
I actually would have preferred to have been taken from my family at the time. Yes, I did feel like an adult and never like a child, but I used to watch normal families on TV and tell my mother that I wished we lived like that and she said "Oh Mary, nobody lives like that!" but I didn't believe her. I would have loved to be taken and live with a family where I had my own room that I was expected to keep clean. I would have loved to have been expected to go to school and for them to care about my grades. (I made straight A's usually, some B's, but nobody much cared) I would have loved to have gone on family outings and to church (even though I wasn't a believer really nor was anybody in my family all that much, but I would have loved to have had that weekly ritual of something you do as a family). I would have loved to have had friends and had them over and have had normal things expected of me. If I had known back then that it was possible, I would have called them myself, but back then I doubt that anything would have been done, or my mother would have lied to the workers and they would have believed her and made me out to be the crazy one.
It did make me into the person I am today though, which I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.
Mary
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Post by messymimi on Jul 24, 2010 16:57:13 GMT -5
Dear Osiris1,
I hope you can continue to be as understanding as possible. Those of us going through this have finally come to see it is a disease in how it works. Just like you don't tell a depressed person to snap out of it or an alcoholic to just quit drinking, there is more to it than just the behavior. The behavior is a symptom.
Another aspect to this is to consider whether this family is engaged in what Sandra Felton, "The Organizer Lady", calls a "Rageful Dance".
Her definition of that boils down to how sometimes the house is the floor on which we do a "dance of disorganization" with others. Someone in the house may be resisting keeping the house organized to show anger, to show independence (mom can't make me), or as a weapon again a spouse whom you resent for not helping.
Sometimes the dance can also be a matter of rebelling against an overly controlling person from the past, especially a parent. "Now that I'm a grownup, I don't have to do anything I don't want to do!"
There is also the matter of those who just plain resent having to do the grunge work, and so don't to "show" the others in the house how much work they make for others.
This kind of dynamic can keep a family trapped in a horrible mess.
The children who grow up in this dynamic don't know how to step in and stop it. They come to see, going to neighbor's houses, that it is not normal, but they have never been taught the habits of neatness and putting stuff away and picking things up right away, so they just don't know how to do those things.
Family counseling would be a great idea, if they could be convinced to do that and work together to pull out of this.
messymimi
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Post by yearning4order on Jul 24, 2010 19:32:18 GMT -5
It did make me into the person I am today though, which I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. Mary A number of us (myself included) have been through things in childhood that no child of any age should ever have to endure. The stories among us are varied--while I don't think I would choose the childhood I had and I most definitely would not wish it on another child--I became who I am in spite of it. I would say the same of you. Hugs to all of us.
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Post by messycowgirl on Jul 25, 2010 0:08:07 GMT -5
I haven't read all the replies.....because I"m too stressed and tired right now.
Having been in your brothers shoes (minues the dog feces), I will say that it's a symptom, not the problem itself. I urge you to use caution if you chose to threaten calling DHS on them. It probably will backfire big time and they might cut ties with you.
What they need is help. Not someone to clean it up for them, but someone to get them started. They might be resistant from the start.
I bet your SIL is reacting that way because she's embarassed. Let them know blaming each other and/or the kids is pointless. It no longer matters HOW it got that way, but how it's going to get cleaned up and will stay that way. I would get mad if my mom or someone else helped clean. Because that's not what I wanted. I wanted someone to help me come up with a plan to get me out of my misery (which included mental health help)......but I never wanted to tell anyone that.
Yes it was/is my responsibility to take care of myself but when you're that far down in the bottom of the mental disorder pit of h*ll, it's hard to do anything by yourself!
I agree with the person who said when you help her clean, don't make comments. That'll only make her angry. She knows it's a mess, she knows she should have kept up on it and I bet she wishes she could change things. But for whatever reason, she can't. Making comments while you clean or saying "You're house is so filthy" serves as a slap in the face. It's painful, humiliating and makes you only sink further down.
It IS hard for others to understand and you may never fully understand. Let them know you're willing to help in whatever way possible without judgement or comments. If they are willing to clean like mad men but want you to help run the children around, then so be it. I was always appreciative of stuff like that because I wanted to clean by myself, but all the errand running really took the motivation out of me.
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osiris1
New Member
Joined: July 2010
Posts: 4
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Post by osiris1 on Jul 25, 2010 19:51:47 GMT -5
I really appreciate all of your responses. I tried again to spend some time there today cleaning. It really is worse than I thought. No beds for the younger kids, feces and urine in all the rooms (from cats, dogs, rodents of some sort).
I never meant for my op to sound like I was placing blame on anyone. I only meant to say that she gets very angry when we clean, and he thinks its "nice" that we clean (and I'd like to choke him for not being moved to clean for his own family). I agree that it is totally overwhelming, and I really don't care who is "to blame", I just want a safe clean place for my nieces and nephews.
The kids are eager to help clean. I really expected more resistance from them- but they were excited to see the carpet and have their bedroom back. I actually had to ask them to take a break, because we were running out of room and I kept stepping on them. I think they just need to see someone start the process, then they're all over the idea.
I think the family consensus is to tell them to fix it or the authorities will. The stupid thing is that they have the money to hire a cleaning service, to rent a carpet extractor etc. They just don't. Instead, it just spirals out of control.
Again, I appreciate all of your responses. I am going to forward this site to my family. Hopefully your wise words and experiences will help them too.
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