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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Jul 26, 2010 12:00:26 GMT -5
Yes, she's dealing with depression. I'm fairly certain the depression is the reason behind the mess as much as the mess fuels the depression. My biggest question is how to manage both? Otherwise, won't it just end up this way again?
I get the feeling I'm in way over my head with this one. Dear osiris1, I really appreciate your intentions to be respectful. You are writing with the effort to learn how to understand, and, even more importantly, you want to learn how to be of useful help. I understand when you say that you feel like you're in over your head. That is why I suggested the links (See the links in my post on page three of this thread), to the concept of "Demand Resistance", the book "Digging Out", and the support group "Overcoming Hoarding Together". This should link directly to my prior post: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=11316&page=3#155494All of these thing will give you skills in coping with the situation. But they won't "fix" it, obviously. It is a vast situation and in need of lots of help. You are in the position of a loved one of an alcoholic ... who cannot fix the alcoholic, but who CAN attend "Al-Anon" meetings.
An additional tool would be for you to read the Squalor Survivors website at www.squalorsurvivors.comSpecifically ... the section on "causes of squalor" www.squalorsurvivors.com/squalor/causes.shtmland the section on "overcoming yourself" www.squalorsurvivors.com/overcoming/yourself/index.shtmlThe link "illness and housekeeping" has been moved here: www.cfidsselfhelp.org/library/illness-and-housekeepingAnd yes ... the children's mother may need to be tested for various things ... mental, physical, and emotional. Obvious physical ailments to test for are hypothyroid and anemia, both of which can leave a person very tired. And the children's father ... is co-responsible!!! Another resource for reading is the website of the OC (obsessive-compulsive) Foundation. Although "hoarding" was once thought to be a part of "obsessive-compulsive disorder", the modern research indicates that it's OFTEN a SEPARATE condition. However you will find the latest hoarding research on the OC Foundation website, here: www.ocfoundation.org/hoarding/If the children's mother can find a therapist that is interested in AWARENESS of the findings on that website, it would be very helpful. But you cannot "force" her to seek therapy.
I have no way of knowing this ... but the children MIGHT have been told not to disclose the state of their home to outsiders. (Many of us hide from outsiders, until our homes are clear). NOTE: This is not a nefarious thing, to tell the children not to speak of it. It is more likely a survival instinct that the parents have. Such instinct to hide our truth from outsiders ... becomes stronger the longer we live in squalor, to the point that we don't realize how confining this is. Even if the parents have NOT suggested this to the children ... the children may have figured it out for themselves ... that they really don't want outsiders to know about the the condition of their home. At some point, many children of hoarders/squalorers figure this out, instinctively -- without anyone telling them to keep it quiet. Children often have a strong sense of survival instinct; and children are often subconsciously aware that "peer pressure" is a reflection of societal expectations. I am glad you are showing loving care to your nieces and nephews. I'm sure they appreciate being "seen" and "acknowledged", and still loved. This must be a great relief for them. There is a private support group for children of hoarders, but it is only for adult children of hoarders, (children who are aged 18 and over) ... due to modern internet legal liabilities; and also for spouses of hoarders. So ... your nieces and nephews cannot join the private support group there, because they are not old enough. And the private support group is only for spouses and children of hoarders, and not for other relatives or other loved ones, so you cannot join yourself. CORRECTION: The private childrenofhoarders support group is NOT for spouses of hoarders. It is for people over 18 ... if your parent is a hoarder or if your spouse's parent is a hoarder. BUT ... everyone CAN read the PUBLIC part of the childrenofhoarders website. There is a lot of information there. www.childrenofhoarders.com
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MiSC
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Jul 26, 2010 12:06:55 GMT -5
"And the private support group is only for spouses and children of hoarders," Lion, I asked the COH owner about spouses, and she said no. It was for the children only.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Jul 26, 2010 12:22:48 GMT -5
oh! you are right! I will fix my post. Quote from the group's description:I guess they mean it's for persons over 18 years old, who have either a parent who hoards or a parent-in-law who hoards. (if you are a child of a hoarder or if you are the spouse of a child of a hoarder).
That is only for the private support group. BUT ... everyone CAN read the PUBLIC part of the childrenofhoarders website. There is a lot of information there. www.childrenofhoarders.com
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Jul 26, 2010 12:41:48 GMT -5
I am going to forward this site to my family. Hopefully your wise words and experiences will help them too. One thing that may help (but think before jumping into it ...) would be to show them (tactfully) the photos on the Squalor Survivors website: www.squalorsurvivors.com/pictures/index.shtmlBut you cannot do it with the intent to shock or shame. [Not implying that you would do that. You seem very compassionate. Just suggesting that you very much radiate compassion when you show the pictures, so that your brother and sister-in-law don't FEEL that you're pointing a finger at them (even if you aren't).] They may not SEE that their home looks the way it does. Many of us here at SOS began in denial and couldn't SEE the truth, because we were so used to it. I'm just suggesting, that if it feels right, perhaps you could show Kimmy's photos, and then say that Kimmy found a way to overcome. And that we have found ways to overcome. And that it's possible. So that you're giving a real message of HOPE and not hopelessness.
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Post by Chris on Jul 26, 2010 12:48:18 GMT -5
Hi osiris1 -- I would like to share the title of a book which is the most helpful I believe for family members of anything having a really serious problem like you described. It's called "Digging Out" Helping your loved one manage clutter, hoarding & compulsive acquiring and it's by Michael A. Tompkins, PhD. (3 other co-authors too but his is the first name listed). Their ideas on harm reduction could be very helpful to you and your mom as you do what you can do to help. The entire book is a great resource for helping you to understand the issues.
Bless your heart and your moms for hanging in there and trying to help. I hope that the children can be shown that there is another way to life and even if the whole home can't be kept reasonable they are old enough to keep their own rooms clean. I don't mean to be unsympathetic to the adults either but it is often the case that children are more open to change and can see the reality of the situation better. It just sounds like a very challenging problem and I salute you for coming here to look for help -- there are now some really good resources but this book provides simple ideas and practical solutions for people just like you -- who are trying to help a family member(s) with a really difficult problem like this.
Good luck to you!
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Post by eagle on Jul 26, 2010 12:54:39 GMT -5
Osiris1, please don't feel embarrassed or like an intruder here. There are many folks here who are not currently in squalor, even some who did not create the squalor they experienced (loved ones, etc.) Your concerns are valid and asking our advice was the logical thing to do.
I will tell you a story about my experience with squalor as a child and my cousins' experience with squalor as children and how it impacted through adulthood and into middle age and beyond. It may not help you make your decision about how to proceed, but then again it may.
Personally, I grew up in a very clean and well maintained home, as my mother was a very good housekeeper even with 6 children. But one of my parents' married siblings who also had as many children, lived in abject squalor. Level 4 as we describe it, exactly as you describe your brother's & SIL's house.
As a young girl, barely old enough to babysit (in those days babysitters were often as young as only 2 or 3 years older than the oldest child), possibly 9 or 10 years of age, my parents let me go over there to babysit.
It was the biggest shock to me as I had never realized how truly horrible the living conditions were in that house. Cockroaches all over the kitchen, along with food all over the counters, stove and nothing in the kitchen was appetising, edible or sanitary. Bathroom a disgusting mess, in which I could not bathe a child before bed & there were many toddlers & a baby in the house, for which I was responsible that night. Couldn't figure out how to prepare a bottle, make the beds, etc. In fact, urnine soaked mattresses without sheets was what I found. No clean clothes anywhere to be found. Loads of dirty clothes all over the place. No clean sheets or blankets or the like. I was completely in over my head with this one.
So I called my mom and she came and got me and my nieces and nephews and took us home to our house.
Just a couple of weeks ago, the eldest of those cousins and I spoke of this pariticular incident. She told me her mom still lives like that and she is in her 70's. She said she hated her mom for many many years because of how they lived as she was growing up. She has only recently (within the past decade) reconciled with her dad, and spent many years hating him, too.
From what I have observed over the years since that time (parents divorced, went their seperate ways), the kids grew up with some real problems that followed some of them to their graves and plague the others still decades later.
Getting past what our parents do or don't do that isn't right is not an easy task for some. It takes therapy for some to move on and become fairly normal. Some don't get there at all, and that is a real sad thing.
Your nieces and nephews derserve a chance at a fairly normal life, and they're not going to get it in the situation you describe.
If I could do it all over again, I would have called Child Protective Services myself regarding the conditions I walked into to babysit that night. But I was a child myself and had no knowledge of any other option than to call my parents. Thankfully, my mom came to my rescue. I don't really know what my parents did when they spoke to my aunt & uncle, though, but the authorities apparently never came into the picture.
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Post by rickie on Jul 27, 2010 1:52:38 GMT -5
I think the kids need to be out of there.
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Post by messycowgirl on Jul 27, 2010 23:39:07 GMT -5
I urge you to use caution if you chose to threaten calling DHS on them. It probably will backfire big time and they might cut ties with you. After reading her description of the house, I totally disagree with this. At this point it is not about being nice, it's about the safety and well-being of the children. Whether the couple "retaliates" by trying to cut ties is almost laughable because it's not like they will pack up and move...they can't. The house is in squalor. They left their children in that situation while they decided to travel. There are just too many infractions to try to play the wronged, misunderstood parents card without having to up the internal delusion level a significant amount. If I sound more than a little harsh, realize I am speaking as someone who as had more than my share of contact with families who've lost custody due to alcoholism and drug addiction--there are plenty of times that this becomes one of the pieces, if not the final straw, to people wanting to change. Trying to avert natural consequences will actually prolong the unhealthy situation. Is the goal to be "nice" or to potentially avert harm? In this situation, it would be completely natural for a report to be placed to protect the well-being of the children. It may also be possible to report this anonymously. My opinion is come from the mother who's been there, done that and fortunately never had DHS visit. Having mental health issues, I wanted help, not someone to stand back and call DHS on me. If the mothers depressed, she needs HELP so she can clean her house and keep the kids. Dad needs to step up to the plate as well. Does someone have a valid reason to call DHS? You betcha. But it's not always the best thing to do. Squalor isn't an overnight issue- it's something that manifests over time and therefore takes time to correct the situation. You can get the house cleaned up as fast as you can, but until new habits and routines are established (and the root of the problem is dealt with) then it's only going to spiral backwards.
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 28, 2010 0:01:24 GMT -5
Having mental health issues, I wanted help, not someone to stand back and call DHS on me.
I think in this specific case, the mother refuses help and the father seems to do nothing, and that changes things a little.
I think we're all hoping that the OP can talk to her about the problem, maybe let her know about this site and others like it, and help her realize she's not alone and that there is actually hope. It seems maybe she thinks there isn't, but I don't know. I hope she finds a way to work toward change, asap.
If she's refusing help, however, the kids should not be held hostage in filth because of that, no matter what the reason. In my opinion, the reasons why the house is like that are right now far less important than the kids' well-being.
The big drawback to people asking advice for other people's squalor is that it's an outsider's view and none of us can really know the truth, including the OP, if the person in the situation doesn't explain it. We're all just speculating.
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MiSC
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Post by MiSC on Jul 28, 2010 0:20:43 GMT -5
Having mental health issues, I wanted help, not someone to stand back and call DHS on me.I think in this specific case, the mother refuses help and the father seems to do nothing, and that changes things a little. I think we're all hoping that the OP can talk to her about the problem, maybe let her know about this site and others like it, and help her realize she's not alone and that there is actually hope. It seems maybe she thinks there isn't, but I don't know. I hope she finds a way to work toward change, asap. If she's refusing help, however, the kids should not be held hostage in filth because of that, no matter what the reason. In my opinion, the reasons why the house is like that are right now far less important than the kids' well-being. The big drawback to people asking advice for other people's squalor is that it's an outsider's view and none of us can really know the truth, including the OP, if the person in the situation doesn't explain it. We're all just speculating. That.
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Post by messycowgirl on Jul 28, 2010 1:20:44 GMT -5
Having mental health issues, I wanted help, not someone to stand back and call DHS on me.I think in this specific case, the mother refuses help and the father seems to do nothing, and that changes things a little. I think we're all hoping that the OP can talk to her about the problem, maybe let her know about this site and others like it, and help her realize she's not alone and that there is actually hope. It seems maybe she thinks there isn't, but I don't know. I hope she finds a way to work toward change, asap. If she's refusing help, however, the kids should not be held hostage in filth because of that, no matter what the reason. In my opinion, the reasons why the house is like that are right now far less important than the kids' well-being. The big drawback to people asking advice for other people's squalor is that it's an outsider's view and none of us can really know the truth, including the OP, if the person in the situation doesn't explain it. We're all just speculating. Sometimes people who feels humiliated react with anger (such as getting angry when you come home to find someone cleaned your house). That may not be the case at all. I would just hope the OP sits down with the parents and tries to talk to them before calling DHS. A least ditch effort to preserve the family before DHS does get involved. I am no way saying their house is not a health hazard because it is with all the fecal matter lying around.
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Post by clutterfree on Jul 28, 2010 1:36:53 GMT -5
Everything points to her talking to the parents first, so it looks like every effort will be made to help before anything else happens. I think that's the best anyone can do.
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Post by puppybox on Jul 28, 2010 11:36:09 GMT -5
I have changed my mind. I generally believe that its better for the kids to stay with their parents if they want to, if at all possible and are not being abused.
Leaving children for 5 days, INCLUDING THE 16 year old is WRONG and ILLEGAL.
It sounds more and more like the parents are not just depressed, hoarders, in denial and acting defensively because of their shame. it sounds like they are criminally negligent. They're not trying. they're not even trying to try.
call child protective services. they need a night in jail or something.
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Post by success19 on Jul 28, 2010 23:26:45 GMT -5
Your sil and brother knew you were coming over to watch the kids - and would see the house but sil got angry you cleaned? Did she think you were going to be blindfolded and have a clothespin on your nose? Seems she would be grateful for the help. I have to say that many kids would overwhelm me - but to have family babysit - I presume for free and ask you to see the kids in this situation and then get angry when you try to remedy the situations is just wrong. I am also rather surprised the children aren't helping out more either - why were food containers in a bedroom? Seems like you need to set the parents down in a neutral location and tell them it must be cleaned up - because you love them and the kids and want the whole family to resolve this issue without outside intervention. Give it 2 weeks and then you might have to make some other decisions about what to do.
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Post by homesteph on Jul 29, 2010 11:29:13 GMT -5
Leaving children for 5 days, INCLUDING THE 16 year old is WRONG and ILLEGAL. Not trying to be snarky at all, but are you sure that it is illegal? That might vary from state to state, and if the 16yo is sibling to the babysat. Legal is not the same as advisable or responsible of course, that would depend on circumstances and maturity/skill level of the 16yo, the number of kids, the relationship to the kids, and the environment. Some 16yos have had first aid, lifeguard, and caregiver certification, such classes are offered in our area. Wrong in this case I understand! I am hearing emotion in your post, righteous anger at the situation these children are in, and I agree. Illegal in every case, which I'm not sure you meant anyway, might need looking into the local and state code where one lives. So whether that is a factor in this situation I'd have to say I don't know.
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