ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 4:14:20 GMT -5
Hello Brains Trust This may be a bit of a difficult question, but I'd really appreciate some help. All opinions welcome. I am the relative of a particularly squalorous hoarder. He is elderly-ish (mid 60's), and lives alone (with a dog). He has a few health issues, the worst being severe emphysema. He can only walk a small distance without having to rest.... or so it seemed! He is currently away (with my mum - a "clean" hoarder, but that is a whole other drama  ) and apparently his exercise capacity has SIGNIFICANTLY improved. He's still not great, but it appears living in his squalorous environment has significant negative effects on his lungs. He only has one working light and 2 working power points/ There are rats and rat carcasses. Dog bones, dog hair and general waste. His laundry was flooded and you had to wade through it to get to the toilet (last time a friend of his was there). His friend is unable to visit any more, as he can no longer tolerate the smell. They will be home soon, and I really don't want him to go back to living in his house. I want him healthy, which can't happen in his house. I want my kids to be able to spend time with him. I don't want to keep making excuses (to my kids) as to why we can't visit. I don't want him to get electrocuted or caught in a fire and die a horrible death. My parents have asked him to stay with them. This is not a great long term solution, as the three of them just all end up on edge when they are together all the time. I have talked to my dad about the two of us (well hubby and I, and mum and dad) buying a unit for him. I would go and clean it weekly for him. I love him and I just want him out of his terrible environment. He won't change, I know. And I don't know if it is worse to try and expect him to change, or get him out of the terrible environment he is in, and just deal with the fallout? Is it ever OK to say to a hoarder "You can't go home"? Thanks  |
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Post by messymimi on Aug 23, 2014 7:27:01 GMT -5
Ench, it's never the "ideal" or "perfect" thing to do to give a hoarder an ultimatum. Unlike alcoholics or other addictions, having an intervention and issuing an ultimatum is not a good tactic.
However, the fact that it isn't the ideal or perfect way to deal with hoarders doesn't negate the fact that sometimes we have to do it anyway.
When someone's health is in danger or they could die in a fire or children or pets are in danger, the situation leaves us with no choice.
He may not choose to change, but that doesn't mean he has to be left to that environment.
It would be much better if he had a clean apartment that someone came in and took care of each week than to leave him where he is.
In this case, it sounds like the house needs to be condemned as unfit. While he is away, you might report the house to the city/municipality/county/etc. and get them to come out and issue the ultimatum that he has to leave.
In cases there the person is able bodied and can clean and can be worked with to overcome hoarding, and there is no danger to children, pets, or other people, issuing an ultimatum is not the best way.
In a case where the hoarder is in danger, and the hoarding is adding to severe health problems, and he could endanger others (his pets could get a disease from the rats, they could get electrocuted, or a fire fighter could die trying to find and save your uncle in a fire), there is no other choice.
It's sad to have to do it in those cases, but in this instance, i would call and see about the authorities stepping in to tell him he cannot go there, and either getting the place cleaned and habitable again, or torn down if the damage is too great.
messymimi
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 9:56:05 GMT -5
If he moved to a new place, are you sure he would allow you to clean it? A lot of hoarders are very attached to their stuff and just FYI, he might not let you discard trash if that is his issue. (I used to work for a supervisor who wouldn't let us throw out obvious trash from the office, such as food wrappers.) If that is the case, it may not be as simple as going in and cleaning the place once a week.
It's just something to consider before you start making financial commitments on a new residence for him.
On a more optimistic note, it does sound like a lot of his problem is due to physical limitations, in which case he might appreciate having a nice new clean place to live, with help in cleaning it.
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Twix
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Post by Twix on Aug 23, 2014 10:04:15 GMT -5
I agree with MessyMimi - try and get the authorities involved. At least then it won't be all on you to try and get him to change his situation.
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ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 10:23:07 GMT -5
I truly don't know if he would let anyone, including myself, clean up for him. I honestly think (and it pains me to say so) that he truly doesn't see and smell the true nature of his poor living conditions. He comes to my parents place for lunch and dinner every day, and goes for a walk around the shops in between, so it's not like he is in it a lot during the day anyway. I think he feels the situation can continue just as it is and all will be fine. It can't continue like this though, as both my parents are not coping with things as they are. I am not coping with my parents not coping, as well as my uncle putting himself in such atrocious conditions.
I have spoken to a wonderful social worker (anonymously) and she basically said that anonymously tipping off the authorities is basically the only way, and even then, if the house doesn't look derelict enough from the outside, and he denies a problem (and seems to have intact mental capacity), there is nothing to be done. The house is definitely a problem, and if they get to the front door, it is noticeable that there are definitely issues, but they ma not pick how bad things are inside. Also he presents so well, and is so adamant all is fine, I feel he will slip through the cracks.
His GP has been tipped off, on the condition that it didn't get back to my uncle. The GP promised the world, only to do nothing, and even provided my uncle written proof that he was tipped off and by who (inadvertently - the GP is quite useless with paperwork). So that has backfired. We can't even do the anonymous tip, then pick up the pieces thing.
The return is getting closer, and while my dad and I have had a great break from the stress, the situation needs to be dealt with. I think it's time for some tough times for the greater good, but tbh I'm petrified.
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Aug 23, 2014 10:24:06 GMT -5
I highly recommend that you get this book ASAP: "Digging Out: Helping Your Loved One Manage Clutter, Hoarding, and Compulsive Acquiring" More info with the author's name here: takeonestepatatime.proboards.com/thread/10013Regardless of whether you call authorities, give an ultimatum, or not ... you will need to learn how to speak with him about this. This book will help you find ways to approach conversation while still being respectful. It also talks about "harm reduction" which focuses on *first* removing the most dangerous elements from your loved one's home. The prioritization is safety first. (organization can come later). And ultimately if he is in full mental capacity, then he has the right to choose to live in a disorganized state. But if his health and safety is compromised, then you may need to get him some compassionate help. Regarding the dog: His dog has a right to a safe environment, and that should take precedence over worries about politeness. If his dog is in danger, then you may have to get immediate outside assistance. For him alone, then the priority is his safety. |
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Post by dtesposito on Aug 23, 2014 10:30:05 GMT -5
Has anyone suggested finding him a different place to live? If he's really opposed to that, I think you would do better to try to get him help to clean up his present place, if that's at all possible. If there really are rats and rat carcasses there, then yes, he needs to fix that. The flooded laundry area--was this a temporarily flooded basement because of a heavy rain? And his bathroom happens to be in the basement? Or is there permanent standing water in his basement? There's a difference, and it doesn't sound like you've actually seen the home yourself?
I agree that he needs help, but you should know that if you do something that will force him to leave where he's living now, he may not want any further relationship with you. So maybe you can try some kind of senior services first instead of calling in the police or something similar.
If you find him alternate living, you would have to find somewhere that would allow him to have his dog, too.
This is a tough situation, something like dead rats is something that needs intervention--dog bones and hair and general clutter is something a person can choose to live with, if they want. If you haven't actually seen the home, I think you'd have to do that before deciding what to do.
I hope whatever happens works out the best for everyone, good luck.
Diane
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ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 10:30:44 GMT -5
He has a dog. He has never had any training, and is too big and difficult for my uncle to walk. So he stays home alone all day, mainly sleeping it seems, with occasional laps of the yard. My uncle ensures the dog has a heater or air conditioner left on for him while he is away, but my uncle is rarely home for decent periods of time during the day, so the poor thing is lonely and bored. He feeds him well, but the dog has no company or stimulation for large periods of time.
I love my dogs, and will take them to be puppy sat if I am out for long periods, so I actually feel that my uncle's dog is being mistreated by leaving him bored and alone for such long periods, but I have never expressed that to my uncle.
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Post by dtesposito on Aug 23, 2014 10:33:51 GMT -5
We posted at the same time--it sounds like he would not voluntarily agree to move.
Is his dog with him at your parents house? Does the dog look well cared for? Does your relative wear clean clothes when he comes over for meals?
Who has seen his home except for the one friend?
You'd have to take all this into consideration.
Diane
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ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 10:40:08 GMT -5
I haven't seen the house for years, primarily because my dad is shielding me and my mum from how bad it is. He took some photos recently and showed me, and that was pretty bad. All my info is second hand though, you are correct.
Apparently the wiring is not OK, and my uncle did tell me he nearly blew himself up with the stovetop a while ago. Not sure about the water in the laundry - that was via his friend to my dad, then to me. It sounded like it was something to do with the washing machine, or the laundry sink. Not sure it's still a problem.
The showers plumbing was disconnected for some reason (sewerage?) a few years ago, and was never reconnected, so the shower water just flows straight down under the house.
I am worried about the no further contact thing, not so much for myself, but mainly my mum and my kids. My kids adore him, and he lives for little more than interacting with my kids. He is the last member of my mum's family (bar dad and I) and she has already shown that she is going to fall apart when he passes on, so if he cuts contact, that will be devastating for her. It will hurt me, but I have become so numb to the situation (as a protective measure), I think I will be able to get through...ish.
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ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 10:47:59 GMT -5
I cannot see him voluntarily moving. At all.
Dog is staying at his friends place....but has bitten his son, him and his friend's dog. Friend refuses to tell my uncle about the bites. when my uncle is around, the dog stays at my uncles home 99% of the time. I and my parents will not allow his dog to be around my children, not that this has ever needed to be said, as the dog doesn't leave the house. I haven't seen the dog for ages, but he is apparently in good condition, if a little fat, according to friend. My uncle takes him to the vet on a regular basis (for vaccinations, yearly review etc) and I believe the vets have no concerns.
My uncle is ALWAYS clean and dressed in clean clothes. You would NEVER pick the state of his home from his personal presentation.
My dad and my uncle's friend are the only ones to have seen the house lately (bar the pictures I saw a few weeks ago). I think my husband went with my dad to sort out something in the yard a few months ago, but didn't see inside the house.
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Post by dtesposito on Aug 23, 2014 10:48:57 GMT -5
Apparently the wiring is not OK, and my uncle did tell me he nearly blew himself up with the stovetop a while ago
Well, yeah, that sounds bad. Apparently there are some communities that would help him with his issues, and some that would force him out of his house, and the outcomes between those two things would be very different.
I guess the question is if he really is living in a situation that is immediately dangerous. Your kids could always see him at someone else's house, and although the dog might be happier with more attention, he could be very happy if he's getting good care otherwise. But dead rats and wiring that might cause a fire should be attended to.
Maybe he's not fixing things because he doesn't have the money, and doesn't want to say? I know I live with lots of things that don't work and I've adapted, but a big part of the reason for that is that I can't afford to repair them. He also might not want repair people in for the very reason being discussed, he might know he'll be taken out of his home. It's going to take skilled conversation to balance helping him to not have to do that.
It's good of you to want to help him.
Diane
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ench
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Post by ench on Aug 23, 2014 11:03:04 GMT -5
I hope he has the money, cause he gets a very good pension (better than most), got a payout from work and doesn't have much in the way off living costs given my parents feed him and I don't think he has ever contributed to funding their food shopping! He is however VERY gullible, and is the type of person who would very likely fall for a scam artist. I have had to talk him out of internet scams in the past.
I would think that he doesn't want repair people in his house due to the state of it. But probably moreso, he is very much a "I'll do it later" person. There have been numerous things that get to 5 minutes before due (and even long after due, and final notices are due) before they are done. Lots of things that just don't get followed up at all and allowed to lapse.
The kids see him at my place and my parents place. I won't exclude him, or prevent them seeing him. They love him, he loves them, and I love him! No messy house is going to stop them seeing each other, I just wish they had the option of seeing him at his place, but ultimately that part doesn't matter.
I forgot before, I have been in his place "recently". About a year ago I took him to a concert. Picked him up at his place and went inside while he grabbed his stuff. Played with the dog. Must have blocked it out as it was pretty bad then - at least the couple of rooms I saw. Smell was bad. And hubby and I went together, and hubby alone, to help fix his computer somewhere in there. Saw another room. Not good.
Thanks so much for all your ideas and helping me try and get to a good outcome. I really appreciate it.
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Post by sunshineshouse on Aug 23, 2014 11:05:02 GMT -5
My only advice is to treat him with loving respect. Does he hoard or is it that he cannot properly process things.(i.e. have working laundry facilities for dirty laundry) or dispose of trash (too difficult to navigate paths)? Once back from his trip, would you be willing to have a calm conversation with him basically telling him what you told us. That you want him healthy. That you want your children to be able to visit him. Didn't he enjoy being in a clean and healthy environment while he was away? What can you (and other willing relatives) do to help him achieve that? He sounds like an intelligent man, not unable to help himself with perhaps the proper support system. Would having him stay temporarily with your parents while he and willing relatives work on cleaning and fixing his place be an option? Does he own this property?
It sounds like squalor is more the issue than hoarding, but I could be misreading this. I don't think you mentioned that he has a lot of stuff that he thinks is important or valuable, but you did say you don't think he would let you or anyone clean up. I get the feeling that you find it difficult to broach the subject of all this with him. The book Lionness linked would help with this, as well as being so practical about setting priorities for a decent home environment.
I worry that turning him into the authorities would cause a major family breakoff. He would likely feel resentment, shame, disrespect. If all else fails, and he refuses all help then I would issue the ultimatum - "Either this situation changes or the authorities will be called, sadly you leave me no choice, and I need to do this out of loving concern for you." If the fear of that still does nothing, then at least you know you have tried AND he has been informed. I think that is part of being respectful of the individual, in spite of the overreaching circumstances.
You are a good soul. I do hope you can find an effective solution.
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Post by immaculata on Aug 23, 2014 11:32:28 GMT -5
You say your relative wouldn't voluntarily move. Does that include not moving to your parents' place?
If he would move there, even for a long visit, that would be great. You could then either call the authorities to get his place condemned, or you could arrange, if possible, somewhere else for him to live. Would finances allow him to keep the place he currently has, even if he doesn't live there?
The reason I say this is that my late father was a hoarder (a so-called 'clean' hoarder, but still) and my mother managed to confine his hoard to the garage and the attics. So that makes me think that as long as your relative still has his hoard in his current place, and he's actually living elsewhere, then you may avoid all the trauma of trying to get him to see the light and achieve a safe place for him to live at the same time. It might be worth a try. You could sit him down and say that you're worried about his health and you want him to move into your parents' place or a new rental while he gets around to tidying up a bit. But much depends on his finances. A nursing home where the management won't allow hoarding would be suitable, perhaps.
It's not good, the way he's treating his dog, either. If he has enough money, at the very least he should be paying a dog walker so the poor beast can get out into the fresh air.
If your relative were a younger, healthier person, I'd just advise you to limit contact with him or only allow him to visit you, and let the chips fall where they may. But because he's pushing 70 and he's not in good health, you may have to bite the bullet for his sake and take a more direct approach.
Good luck. Your concern for your relative does you immense credit.
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