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Post by serenitynow on Mar 31, 2010 6:27:40 GMT -5
Still wrote: "So, for those of us who have been physically and verbally brutalized - some of us over years and years, this board is a place of hope and healing because it isn't as rough as the rest of the world." This is a board whose main purpose is desqualoring our homes (and finances, etc.) I am all for good manners and concern for others, but frankly I don't think people should have to worry about walking on eggshells for fear that they might possibly upset or offend someone. That said, I'm a firm believer in kindness. I also believe there's a point at which being "nice" is not kind at all. It is just enabling bad behavior. I respectfully disagree. "Walking on eggshells" as defined here would simply mean treating another board member with respect and not blasting them full throttle. Yes this board is about squalor and incorporates other compulsive issues. We know, however that one of the reasons for living in chronic squalor is very often a history of abuse which the squaloree hides from by creating a massive distraction. As the purging starts, more room is made for unearthing painful past horrors. Like a caterpillar just out of it's shell, this is an extremely fragile time for many and this board needs to be a safe haven (sometimes it's a virtual lifeline) for all - including the most "shell shocked" among us. I agree about enabling though, which, imo is sugar coated hindrance. That, too, however can be expressed in such a way that the hearer may be more receptive to it. Peace, serenitynow
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Mar 31, 2010 6:28:38 GMT -5
Misc, I can see where you might be especially sensitive right now (I seem to always be especially sensitive ), but I did not read Eagle's post as, in any way, challenging your honesty. In fact, it read to me as if she was going out of her way to state that NO ONE accused you of being involved in previous incidents and she wanted everyone to understand that. You're right in that I'm probably hypersensitive right now. Well, I was going to try to elaborate, but there's really nothing more to say. Edited to get rid of a word that was there for no good reason. "on".
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Mar 31, 2010 6:38:51 GMT -5
I also believe there's a point at which being "nice" is not kind at all. It is just enabling bad behavior. That's very true FOR ME. I've actually asked people in chat to push me harder. After years of being on boards about squalor, I'm finding that I need more intense support. This is about ME. No one else. I'm the one who needs a more ardent kind of support. Having said that, I know this post is kind of off topic for this thread. I just saw something that is a huge truth for me. Back to the original topic now...
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catbiscuit
New Member
Joined: March 2010
Posts: 51
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Post by catbiscuit on Mar 31, 2010 7:31:40 GMT -5
Hi Everyone!
Now before I give my 2 cents' worth I would like to make 2 things perfectly clear:
1) I was not present when the so-called "incident" occurred. I am, therefore, speaking from my heart and sense of common decency and answering the question without knowledge of what actually happened
2) I am not taking sides - as previously stipulated I was not present and thus am unable and unwilling to form an opinion based on hearsay.
Ok, so now we're all crystal I think common sense should prevail. If someone ACCIDENTALLY offends someone else due to ignorance, cultural differences, warped sense of humour etc, I think it is fair that the offended chatter/s pull them up on their faux pas immediately. After all it is only fair that sufferers of foot-in-mouth syndrome (I myself suffer dreadfully from this affliction) should get the chance to apologise and redeem themselves!
If someone INTENTIONALLY upsets, provokes, abuses or otherwise behaves offensively towards another chatter they should get ONE warning. If it happens again then they should get banned. If someone cannot learn from their mistake the first time or cannot control their temper then they do not deserve to belong to our beautiful, kind, motivating, supportive and always amusing little family of Messies.
The End (a la Blue) Catbiscuit
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Post by moggyfan on Mar 31, 2010 7:47:30 GMT -5
Serenity--I think I am not on the wavelength of what happened in chat the other day (especially since I am almost never there & certainly wasn't when whatever happened, happened). I totally agree that full-blast personal attacks are never acceptable. I am more talking more about general conversation, whether in chat or the forums; I don't think people should have to worry whether someone, participant in the conversation or not, might possibly take offense at something they write. Since I guess I'm not talking about the topic at hand, I should probably just stop now
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Post by eagle on Mar 31, 2010 10:11:48 GMT -5
Still wrote: "So, for those of us who have been physically and verbally brutalized - some of us over years and years, this board is a place of hope and healing because it isn't as rough as the rest of the world." This is a board whose main purpose is desqualoring our homes (and finances, etc.) I am all for good manners and concern for others, but frankly I don't think people should have to worry about walking on eggshells for fear that they might possibly upset or offend someone. That said, I'm a firm believer in kindness. I also believe there's a point at which being "nice" is not kind at all. It is just enabling bad behavior. I respectfully disagree. "Walking on eggshells" as defined here would simply mean treating another board member with respect and not blasting them full throttle. Yes this board is about squalor and incorporates other compulsive issues. We know, however that one of the reasons for living in chronic squalor is very often a history of abuse which the squaloree hides from by creating a massive distraction. As the purging starts, more room is made for unearthing painful past horrors. Like a caterpillar just out of it's shell, this is an extremely fragile time for many and this board needs to be a safe haven (sometimes it's a virtual lifeline) for all - including the most "shell shocked" among us. I agree about enabling though, which, imo is sugar coated hindrance. That, too, however can be expressed in such a way that the hearer may be more receptive to it. Peace, serenitynow Funny, I took that completely differently. The way I saw it, 'walking on eggshells' referred to someone who is fearful of speaking at all for fear of another person's (a bully or an abuser, for example) retalliation or abusive behavior. In my experience, the person who feels like they are 'walking on eggshells' around another person is essentially being held hostage by their abuser or a bullying kind of person, because if they do or say anything, the other one may 'go off on' them with a tirade of verbal abuse, physical abuse or some other form of retaliation. That's how I took that, which was completely opposite of how you took it, serenitynow. In any case, for those members who have been or are now in an abusive relationship, I'd be willing to bet you don't want to feel that fear either here or in chat.
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Mar 31, 2010 13:13:26 GMT -5
Well, this is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to say that I'm really thankful for all our current moderators. We are really lucky to have a group of mods that not only make an honest attempt to get all of the information concerning whatever problem is at hand before reacting, but also ask and respect the opinions of each member of the board without letting their own personal feelings and beliefs color their decisions. I have had the misfortune to be on boards where the moderators couldn't be bothered to actually moderate (i.e. the board could erupt into flames and bullets would be flying before they even bothered to step in, if they could be found at all ) or worse, moderators that were opinionated and impulsive, ones that couldn't be bothered to get the whole story or that let their own thoughts, feelings, and favoritism color every decision they made. I couldn't stand being on boards with those types of moderators, so I left and so did many others. A couple of the forums I speak of are no longer in existence, so I guess that's ample evidence of just how important fair and balanced moderators are to boards like this one. So again, I just want to say thank you for handling all of the problems that arise on this board--both the ones we see and the ones we never hear about because all of you are there to take care of them--and for being level-headed and patient, even when emotions run high.
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Post by serenitynow on Mar 31, 2010 15:28:39 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you mean eagle. Kind of like the "victims" controlling how others are allowed to express themselves? I've been around that situation too. I guess I'm just saying that the whole issue of squalor/hoarding is common among the abused as well as a chronic lack of self esteem. And I would hope that cussing others, insults or other boundary issues would not be accepted here and to abstain should not be considered synonymous with having to "walk on eggshells". serenitynow
Moggy, I hope you didn't think what I expressed was dissing you. I didn't mean it to come off that way..
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hopehope
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,815
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Post by hopehope on Mar 31, 2010 21:04:05 GMT -5
well -- I haven't the time to read every single one of the posts -- i did about two pages worth? -- but --
1. I'm sort of in dj's camp -- it is fun and grownup and instructive to talk about all sorts of things. and -- I have been taken aback at how shut down I was, for instance -- the other night -- when chatting with two persons from countries other than my own when I wrote -- in response to questions I think? -- in a general way about a large-scale public issue in my country.
On the other hand -- I have been personally offended (some time since) by an onslaught of remarks in chat -- by two persons in particular -- and when I pointedly told this one person that he had offended me, and perhaps he might like to think about that, in his own time, the comeback was not good.
as others have said -- we are human, all, and mistakes, ignorance and even stupidity is not exiled from among us.
"the world is so full of a number of things; I guess we should all be happy as kings."
and speak about it all -- with some delicacy -- sometimes.
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Post by lilith on Apr 1, 2010 2:07:01 GMT -5
I don't know the other party, but I love and adore Misc and vouch for her honestly, courage and integrity.
I used to use chat a lot. Truly, it is the only way I can make headway. Then I offended someone. I was trying to joke our way out of a bad conversation. The resulting hoopla made me so uncomfortable I can't use chat anymore. I just feel too paranoid.
Am I too sensitive? Nuts? Yep yep.
I miss times like when I had bad phone calls to make I could go on and get real-time hand-holding. I miss days of doing dishes all day. I miss being able to talk a brother/sister in crisis through it.
My house is so bad now, I thought of logging on the other day but I just associate it with bad now because I felt so smacked down.
Of the hundreds of times I was chatting I can recall only a hand full of times I even felt uncomfortable. I recall hundreds of mundane challenges. I recall maybe a dozen times when I felt part of something so special I was just proud to be part of it.
I am torn. This place HAS to be safe for us. The world hates us. On the other hand, it is a huge burden and I don't feel comfortable being responsible for someones mental status. I also believe we are, as a rule, unfair to men.
Boy, I miss it...
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Post by DJ on Apr 1, 2010 4:36:36 GMT -5
Heyla- I don't think my original message was well written because my intention didn't seem to come across well. My perception was that other converatons have made people feel uncomfortable before and that Eagle was alerted to those. I have no knowledge of another recent incident in which one chatter viciously, and verbaly abusively went after another chatter. I do know there have been many conversations that have made people uncomfortable to the point at which someone has had to leave chat. I think it might be necessary to have a better understanding of how individuals reporting 'things that made them uncomfortable' are defining that. Topics that have caused people to leave chat include mentioning rats, roaches, medical conditions which lead to someone's squalor, someone's abuse that led to their current squalor... All pertinent to the topic we are here for, nonabusive, and highly upsetting to some chat members. Some of these topics are actually triggering for me as well, some days I might actually discuss them, some days I might not feel able to, and other days I might have to leave chat when they are brought up. I mention that because I do become deeply upset, uncomfortable, and unable to participate in some conversations at times and my empathy goes out to anyone else who feels the same way. It also leaves me thinking though that it is important, even more so here than in some other online communities, to be careful about understanding what someone says when they were made uncomfortable in chat. Is it the community's responsibility to censor themselves at all times for every other member? If someone needs the catharsis of talking about their own past trauma does their need outweigh my need to not be triggered by discussion of trauma on that day? My impression from being a chat member is that the verbally abusive and obviously untolerable attack that happened in chat the other day is NOT typical and has not been a common event. Chat members becoming uncomfortable has been a frequent occcurence but one that I think would be difficult to avoid given the topic of discussion. My issue with chat rules being reworked was that it was reactive, a knee jerk response to - something bad's happened we gotta do something NOW to fix it. A Mod posted and asked for responses. Mine was based on my experience as a Mod for multiple forums and chats, some of which I still either CoMod for or am the sole Mod of. Rarely has trying to deal with a chronic problem while either my or the community's emotions are running high has yielded great results. An event occurred, maye a dozen people were present for it, two actively involved, a whole lot of high emotions right there. More people hear about it, form opinions without having all the fact, it gets posted about in a public forum, more people join in and form opinions and some of those opinions are now based on third hand knowledge... And while that is happening there is a call for How Do We Fix This Problem. In my experience it's just poor timing. Unless it's a crisis situation, which this doesn't appear to be because the two people involved have resolved the issue themselves, and admirably at that.. I don't see the reason to be Reactive rather than Proactive to prevent it in the future from a calm, collected, and together time in the community rather than reactively while the community is more divided than it typically is. like I typed before, I don't think the problem has even been clearly defined. Is the other day's outburst of blatantly abusive behavior what needs to be addressed? is it the more subtle, far more pervasive, and far more difficult to define and pin down, "uncomfortable" feeling people can have at a variety of topics the problem that people are reporting and that Eagle has mentioned as being the common occurence? We don't even really know what people are reporting as the chronic problem that eagle says prompted the question.. to make a now very long response short.. if this IS an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed it sems better to me to- clearly define the problems that have been occurring. present it to the community at a time of relative calm And aim for how to preserve that calm rather than saying- some bad stuff's been happening, we're all pretty riled up right now, how do we put a stop to it? Sorry for the length but it's been my consistent experience as a mod or heading any group that working from a calm state to address a clearly defined problem to aim for a positive goal usually gives better results than an undefined problem while people are upset and having a goal of just moving away from what is bad.
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Post by moonglow on Apr 1, 2010 5:39:49 GMT -5
DJ you are making sense to me.
Recognize that we are all different and it is inevitable that some person at some time will be offended. Written communication - esp. that which is fast paced - is lacking context and easily misunderstood.
In the States, for sexual harassment to be present, the person who is offended FIRST has to tell the offender that they are uncomfortable with that behavior. Clearly the easiest thing to do then is just apologize and refrain from that behavior. "I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent".
However there is a fine line between "political correctness" and censorship. People also need to feel free to post about difficult and painful topics. Sometimes your idea of what is offensive or uncomfortable is different from mine. So be it. We just have to work that out AND do so in a way that is kind, humane and rational. But I cannot know that you were offended if you do not speak up and let me know. If I am being rude to you, I appreciate you letting me know; I would hate to think that people were leaving chat because of something that I said or did inappropriately. Please let me know in a gentle way. And I will try hard to not be defensive and react negatively.
I think it is fairly easy to tell the difference between the above issue and what are clearly personal attacks - where two or more people are in a heated argument that crosses the line as tempers flare. This is where the community can be damaged. If this is something that is happening regularly in chat, that is news to me (although I don't spend a lot of time there).
I am not commenting on the recent occurence - PLEASE - let no one take offense at my words. But I agree with DJ that I hate to see us set up too many restrictions if this is a rare and isolated incident. Sometimes it is best to soothe feathers as best as possible and move on.
This does give us an opportunity to reflect on what we might do if we were in chat when such a situation arose. I like the idea of PMing the mods but recognize that they are not always available.
Trying to intervene, asking the parties to step back, sign off for a while and collect their thoughts, might be useful. If not, I might continue - periodically - to gently remind them that this behavior is painful for many. Encourage others to NOT engage in the discussion on that topic. Ask the involved parties to move the discussion to PM. Post periodically about how to set the individuals on "ignore" - so if there were new people in chat who did not know how to do this, they would have that as an option. Can we open a second chatroom so that non-involved chatters would have a place to engage? I would love to hear others' suggestions.
Again, people are human and no matter how much we all try to be kind and accepting of each other, sometimes things get out of control. Unless it is a regular occurence - or the result of a specific individual repeatedly doing this (and I don't think EITHER is true) - let's not overreact.
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Post by breakingfree on Apr 1, 2010 10:08:23 GMT -5
DJ you are making sense to me. Recognize that we are all different and it is inevitable that some person at some time will be offended. Written communication - esp. that which is fast paced - is lacking context and easily misunderstood. In the States, for sexual harassment to be present, the person who is offended FIRST has to tell the offender that they are uncomfortable with that behavior. Clearly the easiest thing to do then is just apologize and refrain from that behavior. "I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent". However there is a fine line between "political correctness" and censorship. People also need to feel free to post about difficult and painful topics. Sometimes your idea of what is offensive or uncomfortable is different from mine. So be it. We just have to work that out AND do so in a way that is kind, humane and rational. But I cannot know that you were offended if you do not speak up and let me know. If I am being rude to you, I appreciate you letting me know; I would hate to think that people were leaving chat because of something that I said or did inappropriately. Please let me know in a gentle way. And I will try hard to not be defensive and react negatively. I think it is fairly easy to tell the difference between the above issue and what are clearly personal attacks - where two or more people are in a heated argument that crosses the line as tempers flare. This is where the community can be damaged. If this is something that is happening regularly in chat, that is news to me (although I don't spend a lot of time there). I am not commenting on the recent occurence - PLEASE - let no one take offense at my words. But I agree with DJ that I hate to see us set up too many restrictions if this is a rare and isolated incident. Sometimes it is best to soothe feathers as best as possible and move on. This does give us an opportunity to reflect on what we might do if we were in chat when such a situation arose. I like the idea of PMing the mods but recognize that they are not always available. Trying to intervene, asking the parties to step back, sign off for a while and collect their thoughts, might be useful. If not, I might continue - periodically - to gently remind them that this behavior is painful for many. Encourage others to NOT engage in the discussion on that topic. Ask the involved parties to move the discussion to PM. Post periodically about how to set the individuals on "ignore" - so if there were new people in chat who did not know how to do this, they would have that as an option. Can we open a second chatroom so that non-involved chatters would have a place to engage? I would love to hear others' suggestions. Again, people are human and no matter how much we all try to be kind and accepting of each other, sometimes things get out of control. Unless it is a regular occurence - or the result of a specific individual repeatedly doing this (and I don't think EITHER is true) - let's not overreact. This is so sad. The mere fact that someone has to say, "PLEASE - let no one take offense at my words..." means that we all have to walk on eggshells to avoid hurting someone's feelings. I am not a mean person, and I do not like mean people (who does???), but why can't people be able to be honest and express an opinion without fearing someone else will take offense? I love this forum because I finally found people who can identify with me and my situation, both as a child and as an adult. I also want to help others to overcome their squalor. I do find myself, however, not saying anything because someone might become offended and PM me about being insensitive. On one occasion, I had made a comment to a new poster who came on, saying that out of nowhere her family came and took all of her things, including her underwear. As time went on, the situation was fully revealed and she was in danger of being evicted, had known for quite some time, and her family came in to help at the last minute so that she would not become homeless. When I expressed the opinion that I thought the family made the right decision, suddenly people lashed out at me, saying how insensitive I was. Look, I understand how difficult it is to part with things. I still struggle with this. I was not being mean to the person. I was being honest. She was lucky that her family had not given up on her and had actually come in to help. Apparently, though, expressing that made me "insensitive." Instead, I was supposed to share in her indignation--to validate her. "How DARE they do that to her!! And steal her underwear, too!" So, like I said before, I try to offer suggestions and encouragement, but as for opinions, forget it. I love you guys, I truly do, and share in the hope that we can all be squalor-free one day. BF
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Post by lozzylooloo on Apr 1, 2010 10:27:13 GMT -5
i have been away for a while as time is not as free for me as it used to be, but I came back and saw this and wanted to send out big communal hugs , because we are all agreeig to disagree in a way, and it done well I obviously was not present at previous chat, have not read the apology threads, and have no idea what is going on - not an unusual state for me hahahaha Anyway, I don't need to know the specifics, or even the generalities. I just want to say, I love the chat feature - I also have had some really wonderful empowerment there. I have also had times where the tone of a conversation is too 'down' for me, and is not helpful to me on that day, so I tend to leave chat on those occassions. That is in no way the fault of the ppl in chat on those times, just my decision about what types of conversation I can handle on a given day. I totally agree with earlier poster about we sometimes too hard on males - I am so guilty of this as I tend to diss out on my poor DH in the 'safety' of chat, and am quite sure (now that I think about it) that potentially that could make some people in chat uncomfortable, depending on their own personal values. I also have a very odd sense of humor sometimes, and the written word, although wonderful, can sometimes fail to convey the necessary nuances. Fo those times, there can never be enough emoticons and smilies I don't know a lot about the tech side of things, but I wonder if an anonymous in room warning system was possible? If the conversation was straying, any person in the chat room could anonymously click a button to bring up a yellow warning light, just so all chatters were just reminded to take a moment and consider their conversation. If things got genuninely offensive, a red light option could be available, so then chatters were aware people were getting offended. In either case, the chatters could choose to still keep chatting on their current subject, or the person clicking could choose to leave, but each would just have an 'awareness'. And perhaps once the button was pressed an automatic log would start for a few minutes? I suspect such a thing is probably not feasible. I guess I just want to say it would be nice if we had a way whilst in chat of saying 'hey, no offence, but for whatever reason i am feeling uncomfortable, just fyi' just so that there was no accidental offence iykwim? I live in fear that I am accidentally offeding hurting someone all the time anywhere on the internet . I know that it is easy to do, without realising. Sorry i haven't been much help, just wanted to say that. Otherwise, things are lovely in chat most of the time. I personally would like if my conversation was freaking ppl out (whatever it was) to know and be told, because I personally would choose to change the subject. Other ppl would not like that, and I understand and would not make them. if i was in chat being offended, I would not be comfortable saying stop, so i understand that too!! I do like the warning system idea, and as suggested perhaps a stickied 'before you chat' thread with stuff for new pepole not just about the challenges and stuff, but how to take a copy of the chat text, about how it is ok to interrupt etc etc - as well as being new to this site and chat room, it is good to rmember some people are fairly new to this sort of technology and don't automatically know how to copy and paste, or how to ignore, or even how to quickly do basic smilies etc anyway, thanks again (ha, first post back after a long absence and i choose to write a novel!! i must need sleep )
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Post by clutterfree on Apr 1, 2010 14:07:42 GMT -5
BF, I feel the same as you do.
I think a blow-up in chat is just that, a rare thing that happens because we're all human. Apologies have been made, all's well that ends well. If someone does this type of thing regularly, then maybe they should have their chat limited or removed. If it's habitual, and obviously intentional.
But I think there need to be thicker skins all around. There are many times when I really, really want to say something here but don't because I don't want to have to write 10 posts backtracking, apologizing and explaining what I've said to someone who might disagree and become offended. That kind of thing happens a lot here.
There's also a bit of a double standard, wherein some people can get away with things that other people would be immediately called on and scolded for, but I digress.
Having said that, I still think it's a wonderful place. And I think you can't moderate human nature. Things will happen, spur of the moment, lost tempers, offenses, etc. No amount of rules will prevent it all.
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