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Post by def6 on Apr 1, 2010 16:03:38 GMT -5
Lilith, Please come back to chat ,we miss you terribly
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MiSC
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,611
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Post by MiSC on Apr 1, 2010 16:50:46 GMT -5
Lilith, Please come back to chat ,we miss you terribly Ditto. Just last night I was wondering where you'd been. Come back in.
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Post by Butterfly on Apr 1, 2010 21:53:11 GMT -5
This is so sad. The mere fact that someone has to say, "PLEASE - let no one take offense at my words..." means that we all have to walk on eggshells to avoid hurting someone's feelings. I am not a mean person, and I do not like mean people (who does???), but why can't people be able to be honest and express an opinion without fearing someone else will take offense? ... I love this forum because I finally found people who can identify with me and my situation, both as a child and as an adult. I also want to help others to overcome their squalor. I do find myself, however, not saying anything because someone might become offended and PM me about being insensitive. On one occasion, I had made a comment to a new poster who came on, saying that out of nowhere her family came and took all of her things, including her underwear. As time went on, the situation was fully revealed and she was in danger of being evicted, had known for quite some time, and her family came in to help at the last minute so that she would not become homeless. When I expressed the opinion that I thought the family made the right decision, suddenly people lashed out at me, saying how insensitive I was. I agree with breakingfree, and the others who've said the same thing. As long as it isn't done mean-spiritedly, I think expressing your honest opinion, in a way designed to help, is a good thing. Too often here I feel that, in order to be supportive, I have to say things that I feel are enabling the kind of behavior that we are all here to break free from. I am one of the folks who've later apologized for remarks that I made, in an effort to help and with the best intentions, because I feared the "sensitivity police". I've got to add that it's really difficult for me to read a post that blames kids (or occasionally pets) for something the adult should be taking responsibility for, and isn't, and not post something that I hope will help that person "wake-up" to the effect they may be having on their kids. I try not to post in this circumstance, in part because I know my post, no matter how politely I try to word it, will offend the person in question. But not posting also makes me feel like I'm enabling a form of abuse. As someone who has been abused, I don't want anyone here, myself included, to feel further traumatized. BUT, there has to be some common sense applied, too. Just because someone discusses something you find personally offensive does NOT mean that person is abusing you. You have the right to ask them to change the subject and you also have the right to take a break and come back later when the subject is different. But, as long as they are not breaking whatever rules do exist, they ALSO have the right to discuss that subject. I've read this thread and I am a little bit concerned about remarks that would indicate we need to be even more sensitive and restricted than we already are. For example, saying that, perhaps, at times, folks here are too hard on men. If there's a particular example that crosses the line, then tell that person. But I don't want it to become a generally accepted rule that we must be even more sensitive. My personal opinion is that this is the wrong direction to head. My post is getting to be a rambling mess so here's my bottom line. I don't think clear abuse should be tolerated. BUT, I don't think every comment that could possibly offend someone is bad. In fact, I am here, on this forum, in order to CHANGE my behavior, my life and my home. If all anyone does is enable my current behavior then I am not being helped. As I said in a previous post, some folks are here for enabling and uber sensitive support only, and that's okay. But, I don't think that should be the overriding mindset and guidelines of this forum because then those of us who do want, and are ready for, change miss getting the help we need. At it's heart, isn't this forum supposed to be designed for helping others "step out of squalor" by giving honest advice and encouragement and NOT an ultra sensitive social club? Enabling is NOT helping.Finally, if there's anyone here I haven't offended, PLEASE feel free to answer any of my posts, in my community blog or on any other topic, with your encouragement AND honest advice which should include any constructive criticism - that's what I need and why I'm here.
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hopehope
Banned
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,815
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Post by hopehope on Apr 1, 2010 22:52:50 GMT -5
well -- there is the issue of demand resistance. something I knew was my system before I knew it had a name and what that was.
and people saying stuff like that does not help my process at all -- even if it gives them some self-righteous feeling of having Told Me the Truth or Expressed Themselves.
what we need to be free to express ourselves about is ourselves. and our opinions. preferably not so much about the other people we are talking to, but perhaps -- issues in general.
because the kind of stuff you are saying would freeze me. and i can't afford to freeze up.
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Post by eagle on Apr 1, 2010 23:55:03 GMT -5
Perhaps I was remiss speaking in such generalities and not outlining the issue more clearly. It is hard to address an issue when you don't have all the facts. A verbal attack using name calling and foul language toward another chatter is the behavior about which we are speaking. I am sorry for being so vague earlier. I know that those of you who were present know what was said, and could respond accordingly, however the rest of you were somewhat in the dark. Forgive me for being so vague.
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Post by moonglow on Apr 1, 2010 23:59:07 GMT -5
BF, seems to me you ARE expressing an opinion.... I feel soooo misunderstood. (needing a font for irony here). I did not ever say that we have to walk on eggshells, in fact my post was opposed to that. I said "There is a fine line between "political correctness" and censorship. People also need to feel free to post about difficult and painful topics. Sometimes your idea of what is offensive or uncomfortable is different from mine. So be it. We just have to work that out AND do so in a way that is kind, humane and rational." I.e. common sense. Respect. etc. I also said, it is inevitable that at some point someone will be offended. That in no way implies that you should not speak your truth. My point was that if you are offended you should communicate that to me and from there we engage in dialogue or one of us walk away. To me, it is only inappropriate if it degenerates into an on-line shouting match. And I said that I believe that is a rare occurence. It seems to me the only thing that got picked out was that I said that I was not referring to this recent occurence and I did not want anyone to be offended by what I said. I think that is a reasonably polite thing to say when some feelings are bruised and raw. Even if you have an opinion that you consider a hard truth, there may be ways to express it that are kind. Sometimes we do need to push or challenge each other, bring a new perspective to light, but it's not easy to always know the exactly right response. We do need to keep in mind that we have limited information about someone else's situation and that we are reading it from the context of our own experience. Benefit of the doubt goes a long way. Being willing to step back goes a long way. I believe that much of the time, preserving the relationship is worth more than being right. I hope this helps clarify that I was not suggesting that we should not express ourselves or be honest.
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Post by disorganizeddragon on Apr 2, 2010 0:20:29 GMT -5
I don't really do chat much, but I'm with dj. We all need to grow thicker skins. As lovely an oasis as SOS is, this is the Internet. Honesty does not equal attack or even unkindness. Life is not always kittens and rainbows. When do sweetness and light become enabling? This is so sad. The mere fact that someone has to say, "PLEASE - let no one take offense at my words..." means that we all have to walk on eggshells to avoid hurting someone's feelings. I am not a mean person, and I do not like mean people (who does???), but why can't people be able to be honest and express an opinion without fearing someone else will take offense? ... I love this forum because I finally found people who can identify with me and my situation, both as a child and as an adult. I also want to help others to overcome their squalor. I do find myself, however, not saying anything because someone might become offended and PM me about being insensitive. On one occasion, I had made a comment to a new poster who came on, saying that out of nowhere her family came and took all of her things, including her underwear. As time went on, the situation was fully revealed and she was in danger of being evicted, had known for quite some time, and her family came in to help at the last minute so that she would not become homeless. When I expressed the opinion that I thought the family made the right decision, suddenly people lashed out at me, saying how insensitive I was. I agree with breakingfree, and the others who've said the same thing. As long as it isn't done mean-spiritedly, I think expressing your honest opinion, in a way designed to help, is a good thing. Too often here I feel that, in order to be supportive, I have to say things that I feel are enabling the kind of behavior that we are all here to break free from. I am one of the folks who've later apologized for remarks that I made, in an effort to help and with the best intentions, because I feared the "sensitivity police". I've got to add that it's really difficult for me to read a post that blames kids (or occasionally pets) for something the adult should be taking responsibility for, and isn't, and not post something that I hope will help that person "wake-up" to the effect they may be having on their kids. I try not to post in this circumstance, in part because I know my post, no matter how politely I try to word it, will offend the person in question. But not posting also makes me feel like I'm enabling a form of abuse. As someone who has been abused, I don't want anyone here, myself included, to feel further traumatized. BUT, there has to be some common sense applied, too. Just because someone discusses something you find personally offensive does NOT mean that person is abusing you. You have the right to ask them to change the subject and you also have the right to take a break and come back later when the subject is different. But, as long as they are not breaking whatever rules do exist, they ALSO have the right to discuss that subject. I've read this thread and I am a little bit concerned about remarks that would indicate we need to be even more sensitive and restricted than we already are. For example, saying that, perhaps, at times, folks here are too hard on men. If there's a particular example that crosses the line, then tell that person. But I don't want it to become a generally accepted rule that we must be even more sensitive. My personal opinion is that this is the wrong direction to head. My post is getting to be a rambling mess so here's my bottom line. I don't think clear abuse should be tolerated. BUT, I don't think every comment that could possibly offend someone is bad. In fact, I am here, on this forum, in order to CHANGE my behavior, my life and my home. If all anyone does is enable my current behavior then I am not being helped. As I said in a previous post, some folks are here for enabling and uber sensitive support only, and that's okay. But, I don't think that should be the overriding mindset and guidelines of this forum because then those of us who do want, and are ready for, change miss getting the help we need. At it's heart, isn't this forum supposed to be designed for helping others "step out of squalor" by giving honest advice and encouragement and NOT an ultra sensitive social club? Enabling is NOT helping.Finally, if there's anyone here I haven't offended, PLEASE feel free to answer any of my posts, in my community blog or on any other topic, with your encouragement AND honest advice which should include any constructive criticism - that's what I need and why I'm here. I agree with Moggyfan, BreakingFree, Butterfly, and whoever else has expressed this opinion that I may have inadvertently overlooked on this thread. There are many different kinds of people on this board with many different types of problems in addition to issues with squalor, hoarding, clutter, etc. And because we are all different, each of us will respond differently to various types of support and/or help. Some folks need may need gentle guidance whereas others may need a more direct approach. Some people, like me, may need cheers and a pat on the head on days that they're particularly down, yet need more honest and less sensitive support at the times they're being stubborn and getting in the way of their own recovery. Here's the bottom line: This is the "Stepping Out of Squalor" board, not the "Psychic Hotline." None (or probably not very many) of us are going to know exactly how you feel at that time, exactly what you need to hear, exactly what your history may be, etc., whenever you choose to start a thread or come into chat. So those of us that reach out and try to help may accidentally say the wrong things. Since I haven't come across anyone on this board that seems especially mean-spirited or intentionally unkind, I believe when someone does say the wrong thing, it is not done on purpose or as an attack. They just want to help, even if it may not be the kind of help you're looking for at that moment. Give them credit for their attempt, forgive them if they've inadvertently hurt your feelings, and move on. Again, different people need different approaches to resolve their problems with clutter and squalor. Members that want and need "tough love" should not insist that people who need a softer touch toughen up; likewise, more direct members shouldn't feel as if they're constantly being told to censor themselves out of "sensitivity" because they might "offend" someone. Diversity is what makes this board work. You're not going to need the kind of support I need and I'm not going to need what you need and neither of us is going to need what the person over there might need. The one need we all have in common is that we need this board. Past that, our individual requirements head off in a thousand different directions. If everyone feels forced to say the same things in the same way, this forum's effectiveness is greatly reduced. And to me, that's the most offensive thought of all. I will now go clean my offensive kitchen.
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Post by moonglow on Apr 2, 2010 0:31:02 GMT -5
well said, DD!
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Post by eagle on Apr 2, 2010 10:39:29 GMT -5
Please see the updated Chat Information in the Community Information section for more explicit detail regarding consequences for serious offenses in chat. The updates also include a bit more information about the process the admins go through to investigate reported offenses.
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Post by moggyfan on Apr 2, 2010 10:44:55 GMT -5
This policy seems excellent, especially as it does not rely on people's often-faulty memories. Good resolution of this whole affair.
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Post by mellowyellow on Apr 2, 2010 12:35:28 GMT -5
I read the updates and think they are fair.
Once again, I have to express my gratitude in seeing how seriously the mods regard their volunteer job. They are incredibly professional, yet receive no renumeration for this effort. Thank you!
And again, I have to reiterate what Eagle said.. the problem with this recent issue was not that certain people were offended, or that certain topics or sentences triggered comments. The problem was that people were directly called names using foul language and derogatory terms. That is verbal abuse. There is no other term for it.
I was reflecting about this particular situation, and wondering why some names were more shocking, or more hurtful than others. I realized that the ones that bothered me the most were names that describe something that can NOT be "fixed" or "instantly changed".
If someone calls me a jerk or worse, I can choose to agree with them and continue acting in that way, I can agree with them and change my ways, or I can disagree with them and continue doing whatever I choose.
But if someone calls me a name that relates to my race or religion, or even my appearance ("fat cow"), then I am left with something that I can't change instantly, (and in the case of race and religion, wouldn't want to change). So this kind of insult lingers for much longer, even after the fight has settled.
I think this is what we are talking about. I don't mean issues that irritate us or strike a chord, but situations where we are made to feel that who we are is wrong, ugly or inappropriate. Direct attacks.
It's true that we should not enable each other in continued bad behaviours and faulty thinking. However, we should also not tolerate verbal abuse. That is no place for it on here, ever. Regardless of our personal views, or how open-minded or liberal we may be. Never appropriate!
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Post by razy on Apr 2, 2010 18:09:16 GMT -5
I have not been closely following this but I absolutely agree with Mellow about the professionalism of the moderators.
I thank you too.
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catbiscuit
New Member
Joined: March 2010
Posts: 51
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Post by catbiscuit on Apr 2, 2010 18:23:30 GMT -5
Hi Everyone! Boy this has turned into an interesting thread. I have to say I am a little disappointed that members are throwing their opinions all over the place without actually answering the question that was asked in the first place. The moderators have asked for our help to make decisions regarding what is appropriate and what is not in chat and to discuss options for what would be a suitable reaction to inappropriate behaviour. I think we are lucky to have such great mods who ask for our opinions and feelings on such matters instead of just making blanket decisions for us. Yes, members do have problems, some are particularly sensitive to certain issues or have weak stomachs regarding certain things. None of us will ever ALL get along at ALL times - this is the beauty of having so many different personalities on here! If we were all the same we wouldn't have the wealth of knowledge and experience to draw on to better enable us to help ourselves and others. I am afraid that this issue is dividing the community and I can already see little cliques forming over who was right and who was wrong. THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND! The issue is that, regardless of circumstance, a memer was verbally abused, sworn at and made to feel unsafe. A code of common decency and respect for another member was broken and this is what needs to be talked about. I don't believe the mods have behaved in a knee-jerk reaction at all. This is something, as a community, we need to discuss. As for chat making people at times feel uncomfortable - that is a purely personal matter. Discussing mouse poo, maggotts, dead rats, rotting food - sure it's gross - BUT this is a squlaor community! We need to discuss these things. If you are uncomfy about certain topics you can always say "hey guys this is really making me feel ill - beep me when you change the subject". As for personal things such as abuse, spouses, children, being overweight, mental illness - these topics cannot be avoided because they are all related, indirectly, to our squalor issues. If you find a discussion upsetting because of personal reasons then you have the choice to wander off and come back later. We will always find some topics upsetting to us but we should not deny the other members the right to bring up these topics for fear of upsetting us. This is the only place a lot of us have to be able to discuss these things so even if it isn't to your taste please rememeber that it may be helping someone else. As for discussing topics like religion, sex, politics etc - ok, they may not be related directly to squalor but they are topics that crop up among friends - and that is what I like to think we are - a big bunch of friends who can get together and gossip, natter, chatter, vent, explode and make each other laugh. We aren't always all going to see eye to eye on everything but so what? That's what makes it great! So have a little think next time you feel uncomfy and make sure you aren't being overly sensitive. If you do believe a topic is completely inappropriate please be brave enough to speak out, the other chatter/s may not know they are being insensitive/offensive or just plain rude. Be big enough to geive them the chance to apologise. Being uncomfortable about a certain topic is NOT THE SAME as being sworn at, abused or made to feel unsafe and unwelcome. I hope we can all resolve this with respect and friendliness and that those who are avioding chat will come back soon Catbiscuit xx
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Post by clutterfree on Apr 2, 2010 19:57:51 GMT -5
I admit I don't chat here, but I would not be uncomfortable joining a chat with those rules in place. It seems the fairest solution, and I commend the moderators on working so hard to find something that should satisfy everyone.
I also feel that when questions are asked that can affect the site--yes though it was about chat, there were ramifications for the forum too, I believe-- there's nothing wrong with offering opinions (isn't that the point?) even if they're not particularly popular and are bound to get criticized by someone, or many people. I don't think that's throwing opinions all over the place so much as trying to answer the question and make ourselves heard.
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Post by clutterfree on Apr 2, 2010 20:05:08 GMT -5
Hopehope:
and people saying stuff like that does not help my process at all -- even if it gives them some self-righteous feeling of having Told Me the Truth or Expressed Themselves.
But please consider that someone saying something just to express themselves self-righteously is a much, much less likely occurence here than someone saying something out of love and caring that they hope will help.
And I think the people who maybe do feel self-righteous about it or just want to say something to express themselves give themselves away in the way they say it, and that can be brushed off (I hope).
Not everyone who might gently disagree or point something out that they think maybe a person can't see in her situation is doing it out of self-righteousness. I really do believe that. I hope you do, too.
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