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Post by larataylor on Apr 29, 2019 14:09:37 GMT -5
I enjoyed "Three Amigos." I found "Digging Out" is oriented toward people you are NOT living with. There is some useful stuff in it, though. def6 - I like that you decided you're the cook, so you make decisions about the food. I'm trying to get to that place with the yard here. I make decisions about the yard because I'm the one taking care of it.
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Post by TML on Apr 29, 2019 14:25:35 GMT -5
He may be stuck in a hoarding cycle. Buying stuff for the life he wants because he is unhappy with how things are now - someone mentioned buying stuff to supposedly fix and sell. . My example is my mother who had visions of herself as a crafter and sewing again. She bought all sorts of stuff for sewing but she had not sewed in 40 years. The crafting stuff was the same way - all the saved news papers to make paper mache with and all the catalogs, calendars, magazines to cut things out of - which she didn’t. She had an idea of how she wanted to be -sewer and crafter but her eyesight was poor and it was not really possible so she just kept buying the next item for her Projects. Instead of making life better it just made a worsening mess and that made her buy more to fix it.
She had 1000s of things and bags but never even started one project. I said how about you focus on one thing to actually do and she had a mental block and got upset.
If this is related to his downsizing and his being unhappy about not being able to contribute as he used to and his buying just one more item that will make the two of your lives better, it may take counseling to help him get his life back on track. The hoarding may be a symptom of another issue.
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Post by Unswamping on Apr 29, 2019 23:56:09 GMT -5
redcat im glad you are able to stash away some money. Im glad you were able to work on three season room and access to patio door. Winning the lottery isnt likely to happen. The odds just arent there. A bigger house wont help either, it will just be more space that will get hoarded. BTDT.
There are lots of reasons why people hoard. Maybe they are saving thing for a life they would like to lead but cant/dont, as TML suggested. Some people do it because they see value in items, the potential to sell them or saving from the landfill. Others have sentimental reasons. There are information hoarders, who save newspapers, magazines and books. Some people can have mixed reasons for why they hoard. I am a information hoarder but i also save things for sentimental reasons and other stuff for a life i dont live.
I think counseling could help him see that its an issue. A therapist could determine if its hoarding disorder or way too much clutter. Either way, its impacting your relationship. So maybe couples therapy might be a good place to start. My therapist is not a hoarding specialist and thats ok. She has helped me work on some of the underlying issues. This forum has been a bigger part of my recovery, talking with others who understand that "just throw it out" doesnt work. I posted a link to an article recently about how procrasination isnt layzness, its avoidance of emotions. It had sone useful information in dealing with the feelings. In the same way, hoarding isnt about a particular object, but the feelings attached to it. Discarding is difficult or impossible until one looks at the feelings behind it. That can be scary for people. It is possible to do it.
Keep posting and dont worry about what you can do for us.
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redcat
New Member
Joined: April 2019
Posts: 10
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Post by redcat on Apr 30, 2019 6:15:08 GMT -5
I purchased "Three Amigos" last night and have watched about a third of it. I have a phone date with a longtime friend of mine tonight, part of my self-care strategy when I'm feeling my anxiety levels rise. I'm feeling conflicted about what is the right thing in this situation, but it's ok not to have all the answers right now. Counseling sounds like a good next move. I don't think he'd join me but perhaps in light of our discussion this weekend, he might.
You all are here because similar issues have impacted your own lives. How did you know when it was serious enough to need to do something different? I've long thought that people who have eating disorders or spending problems have a much more difficult time managing than someone with a drug or alcohol problem - abstinence seems so much easier because the rules are seemingly more concrete.
There's no doubt he's had his share of trauma and grief. I know this and can totally see why sometimes he does what he does. Perhaps that's why I've allowed it. The last thing I want to do is inflict any heartache onto an already hurting soul. But clearly I can't do that if it means foregoing my own needs. There's just so much gray area in this situation!
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Post by larataylor on Apr 30, 2019 8:09:05 GMT -5
Counseling is good. Counseling together would be super good.
It's great to be compassionate, understanding, non-judgmental and all that ... but I guess I've learned the hard way that I can't be all that at the expense of my own needs, as you say. I ended up tortured and resentful.
Now I believe that the best time to stick up for your own needs is right away. I wonder how things would have gone if I'd reacted decisively to that first mess in my apartment. If I'd been "me or the mess" right from the beginning. Maybe our relationship would have ended there. But for sure I would not have found myself with two packed-full houses.
But I would have felt extreme, intolerant, selfish, uncompromising.
I don't know if hoarding problems get worse over time, but I know for sure that the clutter gets worse over time. And it would have been a lot easier for both of us to deal with that corner of the apartment than the two houses, etc.
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Post by dtesposito on Apr 30, 2019 10:13:09 GMT -5
How did you know when it was serious enough to need to do something different?Redcat, the actual trigger that I remember that made me start getting rid of things was falling and scraping my arm really badly on the corner of a box that shouldn't have been there. But that was just the "last straw", I had been getting tired of the way I was living for a while. A big contributor was getting older, it made me realize that all the things I was planning to do (read all those newspapers and books, make all those crafts, remodel my kitchen so I could bake, get a larger home so I could have space for everything) were never going to happen. I also have always had an interest in psychology and I love the cognitive behavioral approach, which is logically thinking your way through problems. Something that helped me a lot at the beginning was actually planning a schedule to start using my things--I challenged myself to read a certain number of magazines I had been saving every week. After the first week I didn't get my goal done and explained to myself, well, I was extra busy this week, so next week. I didn't do it the next week and made the excuse, well, I didn't feel up to par this week, next week for sure. By about the 4th or 5th week I had no choice but to admit that I loved the idea of reading those magazines, but I didn't like ACTUALLY reading the magazines. I used this idea going forward, with repairing things I thought I could use or donate, and with some craft things--"I will repair this item this week". Even I had to admit after a while that it wasn't working. The greatest use I made of that was with my books--my biggest hoarding problem. When deciding if I wanted to keep a book I imagined myself being forced to read that book NEXT. For many of them I said, yeah, I can't wait to read this book. With others I thought...well, I'm not sure if I'm ready to tackle a 400 page book on that subject, I can let this one go. Yes, a stuck in hoarder would say, I'm sure I'll feel like reading it later. But my point is, if you TRY to look at these things honestly, sooner or later you have a chance to change your thinking. I did start from the place of being sick of how I was living, I was sick of being embarrassed if the doorbell rang, I was so, so tired of not being able to find anything in the mess. So I was motivated. Since he seems a little more receptive now, maybe you can suggest that you guys go through some of the things he's saving, ask him to articulate what he imagines the time frame for him to do some of the things--like the repairs. Then suggest that he try to repair one thing a week for a while (or more, if he has the time) just to get him to think about the actual reality of all the things he's imagining doing. If he actually does repair things, great, it will get things out. But maybe it'll start sinking in that he either really doesn't have the time, or else doesn't have the desire. And if that happens at the same time that you're expressing your unhappiness, maybe something will sink in. If you're very young though, it's really hard not to think that you have all the time in the world. It helps if you're older, and you start seeing that life doesn't go on forever.
Diane
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Post by larataylor on Apr 30, 2019 11:30:31 GMT -5
dtesposito - those are really good thoughts! Whether we're labeled as hoarders or not, most of us have these things going on. Projects we plan to get to, hobbies to get back to, things that could come in handy, things we're emotionally attached to, etc. I find it quite helpful to work on my own stuff, and share my thoughts and angst with DH as I go through the process. I'm showing him how it can be hard but doable, and it also takes away the holier-than-thou, right/wrong aspect.
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Post by TML on Apr 30, 2019 20:25:11 GMT -5
I grew up in a hoarder home so it was difficult for me to see lines of how bad. My apartment was better than how I grew up but it was not great. One day i opened my storage unit and it all fell out on me. The mountain bike left a golfball size knot on my head. I was so mad that I had enough and just decided that the things needed to go where someone would use and appreciate them. I worked like crazy on it and got rid of all the clutter and even was heading toward a minimal life style. Keeping 10 shirts, 5 pants, and etc. Bare bones. I lived like that for a couple years.
Then my step father died and Mom could not handle being alone. She had always had someone taking care of her. She went from it being her Mom/Dad, to my Dad, and then My step father after Dad passed away. So i bought a house and moved Mom up and unfortunately her hoard. I tried talking her out of the hoard but then she was like but you arent willing to toss much of anything. I told her look around I have practically nothing. We can toss my toaster and keep yours which we didnt as she wanted to keep my toaster too as a back up.
So it was 9 years of despair chronicled here for a good part drowning in crap I hated. I got really depressed and bought a bunch of house organizing stuff trying to fix things but adding to the problem. I never talked Mom out of the hoard. Eventually she got sick and had to go to assisted living and nursing home. She has little containers I bought her for the mini hoard. Last week she wanted another set but i need to measure where it can go. (I also need to talk to nursing home admin - Lady said - Do you realize your mother might be a hoarder? I was like really? (What I thought was - you have seen nothing as mom only has a tiny hoard at the nursing home which I try to manage it in plastic roller containers and I take some of it home and store it in the lost ark basement for seasonal items. To me Mom just looks like a bad pack rat clutter bug as they have never seen her hoarder that could easily have been on tv on the worst days with me fighting it trying to make sure we were not cited and it was in fire code).
I have cleaned out a lot of the rooms and there are no longer goat paths but I was in bad car accident so it is still slow going and the basement looks like Warehouse in Indiana Jones and Raiders of lost ark but there is no treasure.
Long answer for how long can you stand it and how much do you love him. I tried having Mom watch hoarders where this one guy kept using her same argument while the city declared their house unlivable- all she would say was he was right.
My only suggestions are counseling, giving him limited space to make mess you dont have to see but no food to attract bugs, or divorce while you still have time to rebuild life as you will likely lose most of the money you put in house (but if that sends him into bad spiral and you love him that is going to be bigger issue - I couldn’t get rid of mom though I told her if I had roommate that did this (and treated me like slave) I would have been gone.). I think counseling and baby step clean with limited his mess areas.
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Post by TML on Apr 30, 2019 20:46:19 GMT -5
As a side note I am still sorting through Moms stuff and I am working on paperwork which is like a jumbled mess of birth certificates, family pictures, family letters, renewal notice from 1956 for McCalls magazine, the oldest thing that was just trash was 1952, and just plain garbage.
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redcat
New Member
Joined: April 2019
Posts: 10
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Post by redcat on May 1, 2019 6:06:48 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for your replies. It's so helpful.
For context, we're both in our early 40s. It wasn't always this way. It's gotten worse in the past 5 years. His mother stayed with us for a period of time; when she moved out, I'd hoped the space she vacated would become "mine," but it's now basically a storage area.
He has high hopes for how things might be someday. Picking up a few lamps for cheap (or free) because someday we'll have a bigger house that will need lots of lighting. One of the issues I have is that my voice is lost in all this. *I* wouldn't choose those lamps. There's so much of his stuff that there's no room for my stuff, or god forbid, our stuff. Nothing about it is intentional.
I finished Three Amigos yesterday and would like to watch it again. We're not nearly in the position any of the amigos was in, but fast forward 10 or 20 years - could we be? It's plausible. I found I could relate all too well.
The past several days, I've been wallowing a bit. Which is ok. Work has been a helpful distraction. I've gone into the dressing room of my mind and tried on what it might look like if I were on my own. It's not a look I love but I could pull it off with the right accessories. My own history includes alcohol use (gratefully sober 12 years) and there's no denying that BF is a huge part of the stability I've enjoyed these past several years. He was there throughout my breast cancer treatment and has never given up on me even when my anxiety/panic ruined my life on a daily basis. We're good for one another in so many ways. I'm hopeful we can find our way through this. I want to ask if he'll join me in getting some help. Today though, my plan is to emerge from the wallow!
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Post by larataylor on May 1, 2019 6:43:05 GMT -5
redcat - a lot of the excess we have is the result of things not going as planned. My DH is also unrealistically optimistic and on many occasions my fact-checking and realism has made him angry. He thinks I should be more "positive" In general, packing your space with stuff for the future makes your current life difficult. My guess is that your partner is not truly a hoarder, but is anxious about not being able to contribute as much as he did before and wanting to make your future better. I hope you can get him into counseling with you, and he can learn to trust that there will be lamps in the future when and if you need them.
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Post by ohblondie on May 1, 2019 8:18:06 GMT -5
redcat.....a big turning point for me was when I realized I was buying things for a future life, the life I want to lead....instead of the "real reality" that future life for me is retirement and an apartment. also realizing that if I need something in the future - it will be there. I don't need to buy it now just in case. And when I truly need something - the universe provides. Case in point - I was using my supervisors fan on my desk. I was getting the worst hot flashes. Well she took it back Friday (the nerve of her!) when the main office space was an icebox but her little room was hot. I was working on the church rummage sale last night, and low and behold someone had donated an almost identical fan. There are so many "pretties" at the rummage sale - but I cannot buy it unless I know where I can put it or I need it (like the fan). I am realizing that I buy to fill a void in my life. I am going to ask my counselor if we can work on that next. I want to learn "enough". That I have enough, my life is enough....etc.... I strongly believe that you two can work your way through this. You sound committed and determined. It won't happen over night, it is an ongoing process, a daily battle.
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Post by charis on May 1, 2019 8:44:27 GMT -5
I read something that helped when trying to help my husband and his father deal with my MIL who is a hoarder (she accumulates in a fairly ordinary way, but cannot discard). The statement I read was that when dealing with a hoarder on the subject of their home, you can only trust what they are willing to do today. Do not trust TALK about what they are willing to do ANOTHER TIME. Timelines with hoarders come and go and nothing changes--like me and dieting.
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Post by larataylor on May 1, 2019 9:33:00 GMT -5
charis! That was a big ding-ding-ding for me! So true! DH is a big talker, especially when he's not here. I've been keeping a list of what needs to done, the big picture and all the things, and what's a priority. This is working well, but I think I'll be a bit more TODAY-oriented now.
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Post by BetsyMarie on May 1, 2019 9:55:43 GMT -5
For context, I am a hoarder. My mom was a hoarder of sorts, but was extremely frugal so did not buy much. She just kept everything. And had to keep the main rooms free and clear cuz dad was a minimalist. But it worked for them. Ive always been a hoarder but did not know what that really meant. I'm older now and can look back on how I got to my current situation (which is vastly improved in the past few years, but not yet totally 'fixed'. That is just a matter of time.) Anyway, I did move into a larger home and thought more space and organization would be the solution. It wasnt. It just made the hoard larger. And I have had the best of situations - good mental and physical health, good education and employment, and OK finances. And I've been an accomplished hoarder. I think present day hoarding is one of the most difficult conditions to work on and over-come because there can be so many causes and, until recently, finding effective understanding and treatment has been hard to find. It's more than just decluttering and living happily ever after. I also believe there well may be a primitive societal benefit to having a hoarder living in your community - 'the keeper of the goods' - certainly outdated now. But in a primitive, ancient culture, having someone who could supply or could get whatever anyone needed might have been a benefit to neighbors when there simply was not massive amounts of consumables as there is today. Think of the benefits of 'scroungers' in old WWII movies. That's just a thought - and I'm sticking with it. Acute observation. And we all need some 'stuff' to live our lives.
For me there were two turning points. Probably more, but two I remember. One was when I realized after buying some soap on sale, that I already had enough soap to last for the rest of my life. Why did I want or buy more?
Second was perhaps sharper. I used to shop yard sales and kept buying stuff. Much actually was useful, but much was actually too much. One day when I dragged something 'good' home, there simply was no place left to put it. I already had goat paths and stacks of 'stuff' stuff everywhere.
After this realization, it took a number of failed cleaning and organizing attempts, watching hoarders tv shows for impetus, knowing I was too embarrassed to even open the front door to anyone, etc, etc. And the realzation that if I wanted things to change, and by then I did, that I'd have to do it myself. There was no alternative but to keep at it. It's been a very slow, revelation by revelation journey for me. I'm not there yet, but I firmly believe I am past the point of no return.
For me, it's always been extremely difficult to get rid of something which might be 'good' or 'come in handy' some day. It was learning to stick with, to experiencing the pain, real pain, of getting rid of things I wanted to keep. That has been difficult, but an essential step in my recovery. Being willing to experience the discomfort of getting rid of things is, in my opinion, the main component of being successful. That pain is still there with every donation trip, but much easier to bear. I believe I will always love stuff. I just don't have to own it all anymore.
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