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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 8:56:25 GMT -5
I'm looking for thoughts on this, please. And thanks for reading such a long post. I need to get thoughts on this so badly, as it's really getting to me soooooo much. Until about six months ago, I hated it, but still did it. Now I hate it, still do it, and just can't LIVE this way anymore, but can't find the way out of this one.
The other day, my adult child called me a hoarder. I said, "I'm not a hoarder. I could throw away any item tomorrow." She agreed. Then she said, "But not newspapers and magazines." I said, "Not true. In fact, as soon as I read them, they're thrown away." She agreed. Then she said, "But not stuff you've saved from them."
Ahhhhhhhhh, she's most definitely right there. I am a hoarder of paper, paper, paper...things I read that I find interesting. I save, save, save.
Some background about me...I've loved reading since I was very little. I led a very lonely life growing up because one parent was mentally ill and the other parent didn't like me having friends, so not a healthy family background. I stayed in my room a lot, and I was very, very backward/shy. (Ha...not now...completely outgoing and sociable; I make friends with anyone everywhere). Magazines kept me company. Magazines and papers are still immensely enjoyable to me. Immensely. Satisfying. Pleasurable. My source of relaxation is to just sit and read one. More important, the MOST relaxing thing I can think of is feeling paper in my hands, being around it, cutting it, that kind of thing (WHEN I'm not putting pressure on myself, as in, "I have to find this, have to have to have to, uh oh, where IS it?", as I dig, dig, dig).
I've always had a natural curiousity about 90% of what I read about. Type A...overachiever...if I read something, I always have to know more about it. So, of course, if I've been interested in x thing, and I get a magazine, and it has an article about x thing, it's NEVER enough for me to read about it. I always have to save it in a file I've made for it. And yep, I do use it if I have a file for it. Absolutely do. And no, a lot of the stuff I have, I can't find online again (and I don't want to disclose my professional background, but uh, take my word for this).
I have a four-drawer file cabinet. As a perfectionist, my files are pristine. I mean, PRISTINE. You know how they say you only use about 20% of what you actually save? Nope, not true. Anything that goes in those drawers is something I use....future decorating ideas go in there along with articles about spirituality along with a souvenir booket from a trip we took when we were a happy family (I'm long divorced), along with...you name it. And I DO find myself using something in my files every single day. A LOT of the files are more "helpful info" type things...maybe 85% of them.
So...papers? Read, clipped, gone. Magazines? Read, clipped, gone.
And yet, here I sit with paper in every room, surrounding me, emotionally eating me alive...lots and lots of "hmmm...I clipped this article, but um, here's page 1 and where's page 2"...oops, here's the first page I clipped about this from the paper, but didn't staple it to the end of the article"....oops, here's my student loan forebearance form that I needed to send last week mixed in with a recipe for chili (I do have a separate recipe shoebox w/ a ton of recipes in it, but I'm always adding)...LOTS of those...LOTS...important, and super important deadline stuff, mixed in with an article about cat behavior.
I should also add that because of some of my background and current stuff, there are a zillion things that I am working on--job hunting (I have a TON of info), a lot of financial things, divorce stuff I wish I could pitch (but have to hold on to for several reasons--massive info), stuff for my career that I've started to put into a 3 inch reference binder.
When I sort, all of this is sorted FOREVER in detailed file folders and goes into the file cabinet. I can find anything I want. When it's BEEN sorted and that piece of paper is filed. It's a beautiful system. But folks, right now, just in ONE room, I have three Rubbermaid bins or laundry baskets overflowing with PAPER CLIPPINGS--important and not. On the desk, on the bed, on the floor, on the tables, on the DR table....overflowing everywhere.
No matter what my best of intentions, the piles somehow collide again, and I can't stop clipping and wanting to save things. I've done it for as long as I can remember--living at home, married, raising kids, divorced, older, younger, houses, apartments, you name it.
One other thing: My life has been and continues to be completely filled...on a very regular basis...with very large numbers of tragedies. The paper has been (and continues to be) a comfort as well as a burden. And yet, I know I'm dealing with them very well. I'm in therapy, but he says I handle all of these continual crises amazingly well. One thing I most definitely know well about myself is that I'm an incredibly strong person, emotionally and mentally No matter what happens, I deal with it and keep moving forward.
I try to talk myself into not clipping anything until EVERYTHING else gets put away. That never happens. I can throw away a magazine or a paper in a heartbeat...just NOT without saving something I read. Maybe 10 pages worth in one magazine, maybe 2 or 3 articles in the daily paper. But do that every day, and it adds up if they don't get into the files immediately.
So please, does anyone else have just this problem...I have the usual clutter problems as well...small place, where to store some things...but that I'd say is a not nearly so big clutter issue...this is a WHY DO I DO THIS issue? It's eating me alive, and I can't find anything about what particular comfort I get from THIS particular thing that makes me so unable to stop. Here I am with another weekend of THIS WEEKEND, I DO IT. And by the end of the weekend, I will have spent the weekend trying to file or throw it out...and I won't have made a dent, and I'll throw it all back in piles.
One other thing...I can't just take a piece at a time and just work on it. Because I've thrown so many important deadline things in there, I'm needing to find them in about 10 or 20,000 pieces of paper. The only way to do that is a quick sort...but a quick sort of this much is insanely slow. BTDT.
Suggestions, ideas, please?
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Post by priceoverride on Jan 24, 2009 9:12:41 GMT -5
I have mounds of craft magazines. Towers of them. Pillars of paper. Most of them contain one or two items that I could use, 25% of those magazines are adverts - do I want them? No, I don't.
Do you have a scanner? If so, scan the articles onto your pc, save them in a file on there. When a file gets full, burn the file onto a CD, title it, and put it in a CD folder. CD's take up so little room, all the article is together and can't be lost. OK, so maybe the CD could be lost, but there are many types of folders around which can hold them, or even a large box. I have a large box which holds 400 CD's and several folder type. My pink folder is for photos, my blue folder will be for patterns for crafting, my green one for recipes, yellow one for important documents, etc.... The box is for my stitching designs.
Just a suggestion - something I'm going to do very shortly. My towers of trouble await me, and I know I'm going to enjoy it too.
I'm interested in any other ideas which people can suggest also.
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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 9:35:38 GMT -5
Hi Price. Thanks for responding.
I don't think scanning would work for me. I'm a very, very visual and a paper person (i.e., give me a planner over a Blackberry ANY day).
Plus, in addition to just how to deal with it, what I'm really thinking a lot about lately is why, why this, why has my whole life been about paper. Is it comfort? Is it that I'm a knowledge junkie (oh yeah, I AM one big big big time...always believed knowledge is power, and I LOVE learning about anything). Is it just plain old liking the feel of paper and doing something with it and there's really nothing wrong except I don't get it into files fast enough and it all becomes "constant additions?"
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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 9:40:15 GMT -5
One other thing...you have piles of craft magazines to go through. The suggestion has always been made to "not save magazines, hurry, throw them out, they add up." I don't have the magazines. Not comparing--just explaining.  You could look around an entire place right now and maybe find one magazine here (IF you could find it in the papers). I have piles of what's been IN the magazines. I can pitch magazines in a heartbeat...but NOT saving something I've seen and want to save makes me almost have heart palpitations. |
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Post by vega on Jan 24, 2009 10:10:13 GMT -5
Hi paperpiler.
I don't know that I have any suggestions or help for you, but I can tell you my experiences. I used to keep a lot of paper. I would clip and sort into 3 ring binders rather than files (though I had some of those too). Dozens and dozens and dozens of binders on every shelf. I also had decades worth of certain magazines. Whole ones in magazine holders... in chronological order and indexed (yes, I actually made little cards with pointers to certain articles that I often referred to).
Like yours, these were not idle files. I used them. I referred to them. I believed that made them NOT a hoard. But they were. A well organized hoard, but still a hoard.
There was something... I don't know, almost miserly about my feelings about them. I was Ebenezer Scrooge sitting in a room stroking my gold coins. Only my gold was information. I was quite generous with it. Anytime anyone needed something, I had it. Looking back I was quite smug about that. But at the deepest level, I think I was somehow trying to keep the world static. Trying to hold on, to find solid ground where really there is none.
At a physical level I had to realize that at the rate I was going, eventually my hoard would out pace the available space. Even if you can get all your tubs organized into files, the physical size won't change much. If all you want is to have it organized, that can happen, but I suspect it will still be a hoard. A useful one, perhaps, but still a hoard. And someday it will require that you give up space that you don't want to give up. Your office. Your bedroom. Your kitchen. As it grows, organized or not, it will eventually take up more in space than it gives back in comfort.
But more importantly is the use you get out of it important? I realize that that will sound, on the surface, like a stupid question, but I think it's worth pondering. I got rid of a lot of things that I did, in fact, use. Some of them I miss, some I don't, but in the end it turned out that I could do what I needed to do without them. If someone else had told me to toss them I could (and would!) have argues loudly that CLEARLY I need these things, I USE them EVERYDAY!! In all organizing books they say "if you haven't used it in a year, you won't need it" I always thought that was the stupidest statement ever. I had often pulled out just the right article at just the right time and a LOT of them were ten or twenty years old. So, the truth was that I might in fact need this stuff someday... but that, it turns out, isn't the point. The point is what will it cost me to store it, step over it and just generally be choked by it for the next decade so that I can get those two minutes of usefulness out of it. It was incredibly scary to throw out useful things and have faith that I would be ok without them, but once I did... well, I found out that open space is useful too.
I'm not sure any of this will apply to you, but I wish you the best of luck whichever way you choose to deal with your paper.
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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 10:54:09 GMT -5
[There was something... I don't know, almost miserly about my feelings about them. I was Ebenezer Scrooge sitting in a room stroking my gold coins. Only my gold was information. I was quite generous with it. Anytime anyone needed something, I had it. Looking back I was quite smug about that. But at the deepest level, I think I was somehow trying to keep the world static. Trying to hold on, to find solid ground where really there is none. ]
This is me, to a T. When I read this, I actually gasped. And then I teared up.
And now I have to figure out how to use that information to best help myself.
The rest of your post was equally valuable and I agree with all that you said. But that paragraph? It just blew me away.
Thank you, Vega. You've shed some light on this.
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Post by moggyfan on Jan 24, 2009 10:55:49 GMT -5
I hear in your post two equally strong but very conflicting desires: You want/need/are happy with all this paper in your life. You want/need to be rid of it.
I think that's why you feel paralyzed in trying to deal with it (as you describe when you say you try fruitlessly to organize and/or dispose of papers every weekend).
I think it all comes down to whether the benefit of keeping all this stuff outweighs the distress it causes you.
Is it impeding your ability to walk around your home? Is it blocking access to important areas? Is it a fire hazard, or dangerous in some other way? If not, there's probably no urgency in getting rid of it.
What I would do is get some smaller plastic bins or boxes to store immediately urgent things--taxes, divorce-related info, bills, etc., so they don't continue to get put in with all the interesting-article type clippings.
And if you have room, get another file cabinet or two. At least then you can work on sorting and file as you go, so you don't end up shoving it all back in bins.
Finally, would it be possible for you to reduce or eliminate the number of new newspapers and magazines you bring into your house? If you don't buy them and bring them home, you won't have new sources for clipping.
This is a tough problem. I empathize to an extent because, as an English teacher, I have over the years collected boxes and boxes of things that "will be useful someday." However, I did finally manage to get it all out of my house and into my office & classroom. I also did throw away a lot a few years ago. It has been a great relief.
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Post by vega on Jan 24, 2009 11:30:16 GMT -5
You're welcome. I'm glad that it might be some insight for you.
If I may make one suggestion of something that helped me. I'm not sure what your spiritual or religious leanings are and certainly don't want to push my ideas on anyone. However, I find the work of a Buddhist nun named Pema Chodron very helpful in learning to let go of my fears and grasping feelings. Since I would never recommend that someone named 'paperpiler' buy a book, you can get an audio download of her delightful "Getting Unstuck" on iTunes for under ten bucks. If you do feel up to a book, "Places That Scare You" and "Comfortable with Uncertainty" are both great reads.
These are not religious books specifically (much of Buddhist thought isn't). They're just about facing ourselves as we keep trying to control things that are not only out of our control, but aren't controllable in the first place. They're about our illusions of safety vs true safety. To me, they're a great comfort.
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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 12:04:57 GMT -5
Moggy, you're exactly right. The desires are constantly conflicting. And the paralysis? It's not exactly a paralysis, in that I'm working on sorting, filing, sorting, doing, pitching, alllllllllllllllllllll the time, every day, every week, every weekend, every month, every year. And yet: IT'S ALL STILL HERE. Because I keep gathering more to "feather the nest," as it were. And yet I don't do this with anything else. When I downsized, I got rid of so much stuff SO easily. Never even flinched. And yet the papers are just my absolute Achilles' heel. Can I walk around my place? Yes. Does it impede access? I think moreso than that it's because I now live in a MUCH smaller place, so where it was cluttered with paper before (a mess), it's now much more in smaller space. I don't have room for any more file cabinets (would LOVE to have one more...I think that would actually help immensely), but there's just no place to put one unless it's next to my sofa, you know?  And this is a really nicely decorated little apartment, EXCEPT FOR PAPER. So yes, it's on the bed, the floor, the bathroom floor, the dining room table, the coffee table, the bins...it just overflows everywhere. It's not like a tidy little stack of 20 pages on a table that needs filed. It's....arrghhhh. I think I"m a paper addict. I've been buying these things since I was a teen (and I'm in my 50s). I enjoy it. I thrive on it. I see a new issue of one of "my" favorite magazines the first day it's on the newstand and I swear, I hyperventilate with excitement in just getting it home. And really? This is what I think of...NOT "I can't wait to read this," BUT "I can't wait to read this and oooooooh I bet THIS article is great to have on hand." I've always been this way. I've always craved knowledge, as long as it interested me. If it doesn't interest me? Pffft...who cares. But if it interests me? I'm THRILLED by all this. And yet....as you said....total conflict between the joy it gives me and the pain it causes. Thank you to all of you. I haven't been able to talk about this openly and honestly in 50-some years of my life. And as much as I'm sitting here crying about it, I also feel such relief in just being able to say something about this and not feel judged, like, "Jeez, she's worried about some paper? Just get rid of it." |
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Post by paperpiler on Jan 24, 2009 12:11:03 GMT -5
Vega, I'm a little confused about my not having books, but rather audios. Can you shed some light on that one? I love books, adore them...but those are neat and in order and on shelves (much like papers, WHEN they get in the file cabinet). I got rid of a ton of books when I moved. I still have a lot, but I use them, and they're kept very neat. Odd that I can organize them and keep them organized...and throw away magazines..but not be able to get loose paper under control. I will most definitely check into the books you suggested. I'm not a Buddhist, but I do believe in reading (OF COURSE ) anything that offers insight and possible resolution. |
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Post by autumn on Jan 24, 2009 12:16:53 GMT -5
Hi, Paper is the hardest. I agree. I too have always loved reading and saving articles. A thought struck me awhile back. I could scan it in and have it on my computer. That way the information was still there if I want it, but I can toss the actual paper. I have been working on this idea for several weeks and have managed to scan in about 5000 pieces of paper!! That equates to roughly 8 bags of trash I have been able to dispose of in that time. I can label the files to find for later, share them with whomever wants them and it actually is good because some of the clippings are so old and yellowed that they are getting hard to read and are literally disintegrating. I don't know how long it will take to get through the bulk as I have only made a dent but I have made a dent  . |
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Post by vega on Jan 24, 2009 14:10:52 GMT -5
Vega, I'm a little confused about my not having books, but rather audios. Can you shed some light on that one? Hee... well, lets just say that at one point in my life I worried that it might take a search and rescue party the better part of a week to find me under all my books. If one went over, it would have been a domino that took out... well, most of my house. So I'm always leery of suggesting book buying to anyone who is, shall we just say, 'overly fond' of paper. I was afraid it might be like suggesting that an alcoholic take valium to help them with the jitters. A somewhat suboptimal plan.  If books aren't a major source of clutter in your life, then by all means, go for it. Audio books from iTunes have allowed me to indulge my knowledge fetish without taking up any physical space (though we won't discuss my hard drive issues). |
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Post by Little_Ninja on Jan 24, 2009 14:23:16 GMT -5
paperpiler, This is a very thought-provoking thread! When I was a creative writing major, I used to hoard newspaper clippings on strange stories about the human condition. Those would be sparks of insights for my great American novel. I threw those clippings away during a move, after I realized that in order to be a great writer, you need to write about what you know and have experienced (not what you've collected about other people's experiences and hoarded in a cardboard box). Karen Kingston (author of "Clearing Your Clutter with Feng Shui") made a comment about hoarders (and I found I'm one - in regards to collecting articles/magazines, buying too much food for one person, and being a shopaholic). She said people who hoard do not have faith in the future. They feel the future is uncertain, so they stockpile things because they don't think they'll be available later on. In terms of hoarding newspaper clippings, I believe it's because we don't think we'll have access to that information otherwise. But do we really need that information? Do we want to remember every detail of that article? Do we have to have a piece of paper for every item or thought or emotion that has touched us in our lives? I believe that what sticks in our minds and memories are the really important stuff and we don't need a clipping to remind us of that. Of course, I have saved an occasional article, every now and then. I put really important articles in a three-ring binder under plastic sticky pages usually intended for photos. I save clipped recipes like this, and on two occasions I saved an article about a drunk driver who killed two people (the woman looked so much like a friend of mine who had a drinking problem) and the obituary of a woman who lived into her late 90s - her obituary detailed the life of a very fascinating woman. I've learned to enter my favorite recipes into a wordprocessing file for safe keeping. If I use a printout of the recipe and it gets stained with soy sauce drippings, I know I can always go back to my wordprocessing file and print out a clean copy. I've also cataloged all my CDs, DVDs, Videos, and books into a wordprocessing file. In my hoarding tendencies, I've collected several seasons' worth of my favorite tv shows. I use my catalog to search and see if I already have a particular piece of music or movie or TV series collection before I purchase anything new. Recently, I discovered that I would like to have a recording of Yo-Yo ma's Six Unaccompanied Cello Suites. One of the suites is used in a recent Sprint commercial. I knew I already had a CD of Yo-Yo Ma, but was it the same collection of suites? I did a search in my electronic file for "cello" and found the listing, then I looked on my bookcase for the CD - arranged alphabetically by composer - and found the CD. Yep, it's the six cello suites! (It just wasn't titled "unaccompanied".) So I guess what I'm saying is - use the digital age to help you process and keep some of that information that you tend to hoard but really want to hold onto. Whenever I read a great quote, I don't clip out the article - instead I enter it into my wordprocessing file of favorite quotes. You could enter the name and title of a favorite magazine article and note the issue/volume of the publication. It can SURELY be found again, somehow, somewhere. And the advantage of keeping all these resources electronically is that you can ensure their survival by backing up your computer periodically and storing the backup in a safe, theft proof and fireproof place. I got over some of my paper hoarding when I realized exactly what I was saving. It seemed I was trying to win a gold star and a pat on the head for saving the receipt or carbon from every paper transaction in my life! What did I need with check carbons or bank statements from 1984 and the years that followed?!?!? So when I do a major paper purge, I plant myself on the floor and ruthlessly shred, shred, shred. It's rather a great release and gives a feeling of liberation. Sorry I've rambled a bit. By analyzing why I thnk I need to save a piece of paper, I'm able to tame my hoarding tendencies. When I come across a bunch of papers that are years old, I usually shake my head in disbelief that I would hold on to something so worthless for all those years. Then it's back to planting myself on the floor and doing another shredding session. I think the liberating part is that there is no decision to be made about the paper - other than the realization that it is pure trash taking up my limited space.   Little_Ninja |
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Post by creativechaos on Jan 24, 2009 16:07:47 GMT -5
hi paperpiler; i am a hoarder, so i do understand! so many great things have been said here already. so many good suggestions, ideas, insights. i am currently reading everything i can get my hands on about hoarding..this angle and that angle, this approach and that insight. but what works is sustained, committed action every day, no matter how small. i "know" already what i need to do. it's the willingness to feel the anxiety every time i let go of something that i might need again, or can't afford again, or that someone else might need and then i can help, or that i really like, or that reminds me of someone i love because they gave it to me or they are gone now. i am running all of my ocd behaviours around it all. i gotta keep handling each thing as a soothing mechanism for me and the tremendous effort and anxiety it takes to just throw one thing away. and then, i sneak in throwing away a few things a day or putting just 5 things in the donation box, no matter how small. i have to keep reminding myself that i can get these things again. people say just toss it and don't churn. that's like telling someone on their lips "don't be depressed. just buck up. i know with practice in working every day, i am changing myself and may be able to do this in the future. i can do it a little now, and that is because i have been working at it here on these boards with all the great sibs. t is a fine line between trying to do it all myself and letting someone help me, either through some suggestions or through a challenge. i want to be teachable!!! something that hasn't been mentioned here is perfectionism and control. in reading your very thoughtful posts, i would say there might be an element of perfectionism operating that is getting in the way. you have a detailed filing system, probably many categories. (we hoarders tend to have very detailed complicated ways of categorizing. perhaps we overcategorize, but it makes "sense" to us). you do use the information, that is commendable! i guess the others have raised the question that i would raise for you and for all of us hoarders. how much is enough? and for me, does that tie into my own ideas about myself being 'enough'? will it, will i, ever be enough? for me, step one had to be reducing acquisition, that "thrill of the hunt" which is an addictive high in itself. sounds like, paperwise, you can't keep up with what you have. i am in the same sinking dinghy with my hoarded art stuff, clothes, books, and scraps of information! then there's all the cognitive stuff, challenging thoughts that don't really make sense in the big pictyre. like the false idea that when i "get it all together", get every paper filed, every possession given a home and put away, that THEN i'll magically keep it together and have a perfect life living out all those unrealized dreams i have hoarded. i mistakenly think that if i can only get all of my art and craft supplies organized and put away "just right" that i will become a prolific artist again. but why am i not allowing myself to do art right now? and, do i even want to do art anymore, or is that just another compulsion to ward off fear and the pain of living, of intimacy, of rejection, of loss? these are the questions i grapple with every single day. in this information age, we are all processing huge amounts of information heretofore unavailable to us. that is especially challenging for us visual types. i am drowning in papers of a different kind, but papers nevertheless. we all are drowning in just the basic paper stuff; bank statements, home ownership information, etc etc. then add to that our interests....arrggh!  i feel your pain, understand the conflict between two equally opposing strong desires. i hope we will work together on these boards. the people hrer are wise and patient. i need their help, and am so grateful to be here. these boards have saved my life and sanity. great thread, thanks for starting it! |
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Post by moggyfan on Jan 24, 2009 16:18:37 GMT -5
I also feel such relief in just being able to say something about this and not feel judged, like, "Jeez, she's worried about some paper? Just get rid of it.", paperpiler :-) If that were the case, NONE of us would be here! If only, eh?
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