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Post by Lucky Laura Loving Life on Jul 1, 2009 17:12:04 GMT -5
Dear Peeps, Just wanted to say a quick note.With this topic and all the responses that I am proud to belong to a group that is so very brilliant! All you lady's are so smart and well spoken.It never ceases to impress me with all the well thought out ideas & solutions I read here! Love You Gals Bunch's and Heaps !!! I am so grateful and privileged to be a part of this group. Love,Laura Hip Hip Hooray for SooS
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Post by Meme on Jul 1, 2009 20:48:55 GMT -5
I have never chatted on the new board but I did on the old board and I assumed this board is similar in that the chat is a working chat-- I know that we do sometimes refer someone who is looking for help to go to chat for challenges. I think that it is important that we get them on board with the challenge and not spend too much of their time chatting. I personally would not stay in the chat room if it became offensive in teasing or flirting or sexual content even if the chatter was not speaking to me- and most likely I would consider not returning just because I am a Christian. I think it may have happened with out any one realizing the consequences or the offense but now that it is known- it should just not happen anymore. I did receive a PM once from a male lurker which made me uncomfortable and I did send a note to the mods but I did not hear back. I did not reply to the PM and never hear any more- he was the one who mentioned he was coming out of lurking to PM me, and perhaps that is why I am now shy re lurkers and it did upset me at the time-. if I had been a new member I might have left and then lost the help I needed orand others would have lost the help I could share. Sometimes we can say something that is offensive but only because of the way it was written or read but most of us know when we are crossing a line--- I have never read an offensive message yet but on occasion I will disagree with some one's statement or parts of the statement but I am not offended as that is generally a matter of opionion rather than an offense- I think that we can forgive any of the previous offenses and move on and chat away as we should be chatting. Also I would make sure the rule is plain and simple and open and easy for anyone to understand and to find and to read . Have fun chatting and God bless everyone and happy summer- and if you read all of this you get a star** . the bottom line is that if the rule is to ''not do something-- then just do not do it- I know that there are gals who have been in difficult situations and relationships and they may be frightened to speak out and may even just quietly go away. We who are stronger need to be there to share out strength with those who are weaker so they too will become strong-
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Post by joyinvirginia on Jul 1, 2009 20:58:00 GMT -5
I check in infrequently but have been reading these boards for quite a few years. Have never had time to chat.
My opinion: terms of service need to be taken very seriously. Violators should be warned ONCE and then banned on a second offense. Another board I frequent has strict moderator rules: one violation the poster loses the privilege to post for one week; repeated violations the poster is banned. The rules are clear and enforced for everyone.
Joking around in a friendly manner is acceptable. Flirting and sexual innuendo in this context, on this board, is unacceptable. Like others have said, plenty of other places to do that.
Me - I work in health care with folks who have what used to be called "social diseases". I have to talk about that stuff all the time at work, and I don't want to have to deal with it when I am off duty. Joy in Virginia
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 1, 2009 21:00:27 GMT -5
My two cents:
There are plenty of cyber chats on the Net. Go find them.
There are plenty of religious chats on the Net. Go find them.
There are plenty of political chats on the Net. Go find them.
None of them have anything to do with squalor and stepping out of squalor. "My husband keeps making a mess every time I try to straighten out a room" is a far cry from "Hey baby, if I were your husband, I'm sure I could please you better."
A place for everything and everything in its place also applies to inappropriate situations as much as it applies to squalor.
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Post by paperpiler on Jul 1, 2009 21:06:17 GMT -5
One other comment:
There are a lot of people, including myself, who lead very sheltered lives because of squalor and what squalor has caused. When you mix men with ladies...and perhaps men and ladies who aren't married, or don't date much, or have isolated themselves...there's a huge temptation to "ante up" the chat to a sexual level.
I'll be very honest. I'm not a shrinking violet. Nor am I prudish. But if someone...anyone...here approached me with some sexual comment thought of as "harmless flirting" to stimulate themselves instead of keeping the focus on the topic at hand...they'd be shut down by me in NO uncertain terms.
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Post by Peach on Jul 1, 2009 21:58:47 GMT -5
I am not a chat participant but here is my 2 cents: Proboards' terms of service are very clear as to what is unacceptable. (Thank you Lioness for posting them for easy reference here.) We all agreed to those terms when we registered with SooS. Why are we even debating the matter?
This is a special support community. In my short time here, I have been impressed with its intellectual level, kindness and non-judgmental acceptance of all. We all have very good communication skills and practice good etiquette and writing. Why jeopardize it?
I agree with the idea of adding a brief reminder of the applicable terms of service to the chat section.
SooS moderators/administrators should monitor chat and follow-up and respond to member's concerns whenever perceived inappropriate behavior is reported.
Members who violate the terms of service should be banned immediately.
As papaswife so eloquently stated - we are a community of diverse individuals. Stronger members need to stand up for those who are unable, hesitant or afraid.
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Post by Meme on Jul 2, 2009 0:14:58 GMT -5
we do need to stand firm- I know that sometimes folks do not realize that their comments can be horrid to someone else- and cause triggers of bad times. I know that there are folks here who have been molested and abused and date raped and stranger raped and comments can be a trigger- as often this is how the rapist gets you to pay attention to him/her in the beginning. date rape usually begins with flirting and sexual comments and sometimes we do not know how to say ''don't talk to me like that.''-or- we do not expect the sometimes ending. Now I know that no one meant to do that to anyone but I do think that they need to know just what may be happening to the other person.
for any one who has been raped it is more than just the violation of our body- it is a near death experience because there is nothing that one can do and one does not even know if that person is going to let you live-when all is said and done. and after the rape -society can rape you again by blaming you for flirting or wearing the wrong clothes or being in the wrong place or saying or not saying the wrong thing- = there is a time and place for this and our chat room is not the place. I have met may friends here and I want them to be safe- once you have been sexually hurt it is very hard to feel safe again. and it is not a weakness to not like hearing this stuff or being afraid to speak up and say stop- sometimes we just run and hide because the memory pains are too painful. Lets give our squalee friends happy thoughts and triggers -
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Post by notsomessyshell on Jul 2, 2009 3:51:50 GMT -5
When I first joined here I loved chat. I got tons of stuff done. Then something changed. Either me or chat I am not sure, but I don't really go much any longer. The spirit seems to have changed. I can't quite articulate it but I can feel it. I have not been a party to any off color or randy conversations. I would have just left. It is not what I go there for. The internet gives such a feeling of anonymity that perhaps we say things we would never say in real life. I hope that thanks to this conversation we can all do a little "self censuring" and be a little more aware of our wonderful co squalorers and their feelings.
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Post by annieblue on Jul 2, 2009 6:02:59 GMT -5
Sigh. I am trying really hard to not make a huffmobile exit post, ala "I can't take another moment of this, I am leaving NOW." I am bipolar. I can get excited or dismayed by certain things quite easily & fly off & do something erratic like that. I don't want to, but the temptation is there. Why? Well, because I am seeing & feeling so much disturbing, disruptive, & growing discord in what I previously perceived to be a harmonious community, & it is beginning to break my heart. This was the only online community I have ever been in which seemed above the petty, judgmental, divisive, ugly bickering that occurs elsewhere. We all have a very sensitive issue in common, & that is the glue which unites us, & it is also possibly the glue which keeps us extra-respectful of one another. However, as of late: I have seen fascinating, eye-opening chat discussions labeled as fighting. I have seen genuine friendships & bro-sis relationships labeled as flirting. I have seen light-hearted banter labeled as offensive teasing. I have seen PG-13 conversations labeled as perverse & explicit. I have seen more ALARMIST behavior than I can shake a stick at. Yes, I have also seen a few times when lines of normal adult conversation have crossed over into 'questionable' areas, but lawsy it is the exception & not the rule! Don't let's have people thinking raucous sexual escapades have been going on in our chat, as that most certainly has not been happening. Risque talk has happened, 2 nude photos (that I know of) have been linked to - both of which were of celebrities being discussed at that time in chat. Each of these events, the discussions & photos, have been addressed & such behavior has been curbed. I don't see anyone spazzing out & getting all wild with that stuff again anytime soon. Moving on: It is mind-numbing that a group of conscientious adults cannot form a consensus as to what is & what is not appropriate for adult conversation & get on down the road here. Oh yes, & the absolute worst thing I have seen? Anyone getting a screwy notion that WORK has somehow dropped out of focus in Chat. That is the most ludicrous of all. Yes, the current hoopla has inspired various conversations from time to time, but above & beyond anything else I have come to expect from chat - WORK is the ever-present constant. And not just because I blow the new whistle 6 times in a row if I feel like it, heh.Point is, if it has been established that proboards is a PG-13 forum, what is there to further discuss? As Skatters said, we all qualify for the PG-13 rating. Going any more stringent than that is the equivalent of censoring 'normal' adult discussions. When it gets to that point, you have another whole segment of chatters who feel they are rubberbanded so tightly that they can't even breathe. It has been said many times that a number of members have sexual histories which have resulted in present-day sensitivities regarding reminders of that history. I have some of that too. I also have sensitivities in other areas, including domestic violence, parental neglect, self injury, anorexia-bulimia, & the list goes on longer than you can imagine. I don't believe there is anyone here without some sort of sensitivity or another. The only way to 'never' chance touching on someone's sensitivity is to never speak at all. Short of that, I believe we all do our very best to respect the sensitivities of others. In some cases, even that is not enough. Then what? Well, I think that is exactly where we are right now. Peace. To All. I love you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 7:18:26 GMT -5
You raise an excellent point of view annie, and I agree 100% with what your saying!
The fact is that we're all soo broad and from all over the place with different backgrounds and personalities that it just isn't possible to bend to everyones wishes. The terms are the terms and we must follow them however as I have said we can't surpress the people we are in fact like you said if that was soo the only way to do that would be to stop talking at all.
As I said earlier the things I'm not comfortable with if ever anyone is talking about them I never feel its a personal attack on me I just either have been leaving the chat area to go into the challenge train or I just don't participate... you know I would never feel anyone here would ever ever say something to make me feel upset.
As when we were discussing in chat my point was to stop pointing the finger of blame and as adults we have a responsibility that if anyone is uncomfortable about chat they should say or leave and we should respect that... not because of terms but because we're all "friends" to some extent.
Yes and I also agree that when refering to the sexual things it sounds sooo vulgur and that is not really whats been happening I would especially like to say this to those that don't frequent chat at all, yes maybe it has got a little bit over the top so to speak but only very slightly. You are also correct about challenging still going on and progress still being made, the fact that chat is so fun and always happy is something that really keeps me going in between doing the mudane and I would hate to see it restricted soo much that we wouldn't be allowed to state anything without it seeming this way.
I went back and edited the end of my original post earlier to state about the sexual thing, which I think is a bit strong of a word and is being used in a much lewd way than is intended. Its not like everyone is cybering or anything its just the very occasional times it has been touched on lightly and ofc paths have been crossed. For me I feel the conflict of something so minor has really done more damage than the act itself!
I really enjoyed reading your post very much!
huggles!
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Jul 2, 2009 10:03:16 GMT -5
- True story #1:(I will use anonymous names, but the story is real). "Person X" and "Person Y". This does NOT refer to anyone's initials or gender. "X" and "Y" are just random letters. Something I observed several months ago: Person X was continuously teasing Person Y about a certain situation, and "X" began calling "Y" an annoying nickname. Over and over and over and over and over and over, day after day after day. Finally, I privately asked "Person Y" how "Person Y" felt about all this. Person Y replied: "Well, when it started, we teased one another back and forth with light banter and had equally annoying nicknames for one another. But after a while, it got old. I decided to STOP teasing X in that manner and I stopped calling X by that annoying nickname. However, X has continued in same pattern without ceasing." Person Y went on to explain that at first, Y felt that Y had to go along with the situation -- in order to be friendly; but it had long since stopped being fun.I told Y to tell X to STOP. Then Y went into chat and told X to stop. Meanwhile, I privately chatted with Person X and suggested that after so many days, that this pattern was getting out of hand. Person X was surprised and said that the teasing had been equal. I replied that actually, Y had stopped teasing X. And that Y wanted X to stop teasing Y. X was very upset, and felt that no proper indication had been given that the pattern was no longer okay. I told X to please LISTEN to Y. Eventually they worked it out. No harm was done. But time/energy was wasted in working this out. The issues were: - X was ASSUMING that Y was still enjoying the teasing.
- And Y was ASSUMING that Y would have to put up with the teasing in order to appear friendly.
- Y didn't realize that Y could just say "STOP" affirmatively.
- Both people made assumptions and didn't communicate.
- Also, there were cultural differences that contributed to the assumptions.
I think that the mods need to include in the "code of ethics" a reminder that there are different perceptions of "boundaries" and to please not ASSUME that certain behaviors are helpful. And to please ASK if you want to continue teasing someone. And that you NEVER have to put up with banter if it upsets you -- just say STOP. -
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Post by CourageouslyLion SeeksSerenity on Jul 2, 2009 10:30:02 GMT -5
- True Story #2 (the names are anonymous, but the story is real)
"Person B" and "Person Z". This does NOT refer to anyone's initials. "B" and "Z" are just random letters. One day, when I was in the chatroom, "Person B" was in chat telling everyone concerns about the behavior of "an unnamed person".
"B" said that the unnamed person had been flirting with everyone. B did NOT tell us who the "unnamed person" was.
B said that B did not wish to be flirted with, and felt very uncomfortable.
In the middle of B's story, "Person Z" entered chat. B immediately left.
Z exclaimed: "How come every time I enter chat, B leaves?" Nobody replied.
Later, B messaged me privately to say that, in fact, "Z" was the "unnamed person". I told B to please tell Z to STOP. I got the impression that B felt unable to speak up.
I don't know what happened after that.
It saddened me that B felt the need to leave chat every time that Z came in.
It saddened me that Z was wondering if something was amiss, but was unable to guess what the problem was.
I could have taken Z aside and spoken to Z about the problem. But I did nothing.
I could have reported B's concerns to the mods, but I did nothing.
I myself was having a rough week and was unable to handle any further strain. So I chose not to meddle with the situation. I felt bad.
I have no idea if the situation was ever resolved.
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Post by Admin on Jul 2, 2009 11:05:17 GMT -5
I did receive a PM once from a male lurker which made me uncomfortable and I did send a note to the mods but I did not hear back. I did not reply to the PM and never hear any more- he was the one who mentioned he was coming out of lurking to PM me, and perhaps that is why I am now shy re lurkers and it did upset me at the time-. if I had been a new member I might have left and then lost the help I needed orand others would have lost the help I could share. Dearest Meme, we are terribly sorry for not responding at the time. It appeared that you handled it appropriately and needed no further advice. However, it would have been nice to have been acknowledged, and for our lack of response we apologize. Gentle hugs, the mods
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Post by Celeste on Jul 2, 2009 15:40:19 GMT -5
This topic makes for interesting reading. There are two things in particular coming out of it that I find helpful:
People didn't know of the ProBoards TOS and PG-13 (Disney) rating.
Chatters have left chat without saying anything when personal boundaries were crossed, leaving the impression nothing was wrong.
Apart from those chatters noted in the OP, the admins have received additional pms from those who had similar problems in the chat room and left. The chat room is a service provided to this community to help all members. If people avoid chat because they don't like the atmosphere, we need to revise things a little. (Just a little.)
My personal impression is that moderators need to follow Souggy's advice and provide at least a link to the ProBoards TOS.
Chatters can monitor themselves now they know the standards. We are adults here. We do this all the time.
AnnieBlue and Skatters are correct about our personal demons being a minefield. They vary. There is no way of knowing what may upset someone. I think we should stick with the PG-13 rating as our guide. If you are having difficulty with a particular topic, let the offender know you need help. We're all compassionate people. Request a temporary change in the subject. If problems continue once the transgressor is made aware, activate "Ignore" on the offending party and contact the moderators.
Frankly, despite being the admin guilty of activating (and deactivating) chat transcripts, I'm not all that keen on reading them. None of us are. If people can moderate themselves, that would be ideal.
I do feel chat logs are an excellent resource if a "he said/she said" debate arises or the question of context comes up. They are exact, impartial records. Perhaps the answer is to keep the logging option deactivated, but available to us if we start having debates.
I've heard some people express concerns about the moderators here collecting weekly transcripts, then having them subpoenad in a court of law if a member became embroiled in a lawsuit. It IS an concern. Frankly, they wouldn't bother with us. They'd go straight to the chat room provider who collects them anyway, regardless whether we do or not. Much fewer legal hassles for them.
My take on this: If a person thinks an ex, an employer, a judge or lawyer would have an unhealthy interest in their emails, posts, chats, or visited websites, they need to be VERY circumspect about what they put online.
One thing I do want to emphasize is the scope of this problem. Most chat activity is geared toward challenges, cheerleading and mood boosts of one sort or another. Most of the conversations are well within bounds of the TOS. It is the exception to that which we are aiming to curtail. They are rare, although not as rare as I once thought. It won't take much adjusting to take care of this, so lets try not to overreact either way. Okay?
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Post by puppybox on Jul 2, 2009 16:43:33 GMT -5
I wish to note this: PG-13 standards actually differ from place to place. Maybe in the USA its the same from state to state. But in Canada it is different than inthe USA, and even differs from province to province. In my province, quite a lot of sex is allowed, but not that much violence. In Japan where I lived for 2 years, a huge amount of violence is allowed but not too much sex.
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