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Post by Moodle on Jul 3, 2009 16:51:07 GMT -5
I still vote for a screen that comes up when you click on "chat" that briefly states the rules. If that is possible... One that you "click" accepting the rules before entering chat... Is something like that even possible? CD Seconding Cando. I also agree that mods need to monitor chat. It is naive to think that what is said in chat is not easily recoverable.... whether it is monitored by mods or not. I have seen many posts containing wishful interpretations of "rights to privacy" laws that are basically correct pertaining to conversations on our personal telephones while at home, but not to exchanges via the Internet. Every written word posted on the Internet or email, including PMs, can be readily accessed through the process of legal 'discovery' should someone convince a judge that your electronic activity needed to be reviewed. I am certainly not a lawyer, but I will share what has been drilled into me by my organization's legal team regarding Constitutional rights to privacy: once we share written words with even one other person, we are no longer the 'sole proprietor' of the information. And, anyone can legally make an electronic record of an exchange (whether it be a face-to-face conversation, telephone conversation, or Internet posts) in many states, including mine, without the other person's permission.....only one person taking part in the communication exchange must be aware that the exchange is being electronically saved and that one person can be the person electronically saving the record. We just never know on the very public Internet who will use our words for what purposes or what anyone's personal agenda really is in any forum. I come to SOS with the need to continuously work on my house and to fight my tendencies toward squalor. Chat deserves monitoring with the same care and concern as the rest of the board and for the same reasons. I trust our mods to monitor appropriately or I would not be a member of SOS.
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Post by notsomessyshell on Jul 3, 2009 16:57:36 GMT -5
Thank you Eagle. I have been down this road before. A wonderful board of fabulous people I care for dissolved into a war of words. Please don't let this happen here!
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Post by annieblue on Jul 3, 2009 17:16:00 GMT -5
Thank You, Eagle!My votes: 1. Yes, PG-13, especially since that is mandatory per proboards. There is plenty enough leeway there for most everyone to be satisfied. 2. Yes, link to proboards TOS upon entry to chat.3. No on chat transcripts, unless complaints continue to arise. Everyone needs a chance to go forward. And even though these transcripts 'are' kept & available from proboards, it makes too many people feel they are confiding sensitive issues to more than the people in the room. 4. A return to peace for all those who regularly use chat to accomplish their work goals as well as relax in-between with caring & fun friends. Um, that would be me, right now, back into chat, lots to do, lots to do.
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Post by Rennie Ellen on Jul 3, 2009 17:25:57 GMT -5
Script: Example of NOT OK flirts: "Hey, anyone wanna see a picture of me vacuuming my bedroom in my underwear?"
Christmasshopper: I'd need a wide angle lens.
Rennie: I'd need an IMAX screen!
Edited To Add: Now that I've read the entire thread, I hope I wasn't being distasteful by my post. I was trying to inject some badly needed humor here.
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Post by Vassili on Jul 3, 2009 18:51:08 GMT -5
I will have to say, I am absolutely appalled at this thread. I have always thought this is an intellectual community where people can be accepting and get together. I can understand why the non-chatters view this thing as a constant problem. However you need to remember when reading this thread that it is months worth of complaints before the moderators decided to do anything about them. When you combine all these complaints into one post, it does sound like it is going on 24/7, when it is NOT. They did not means to unnerve the community like this.
I have never thought that this community would follow the same line as American politics and use "strawman" tactics. Yes, there were issues. There are cultural differences; what would be acceptable in one culture is not acceptable in another. Like I said to someone in the chat: "one person insensitivity is another's hypersensitivity" and really, it would be hard to appeal to everyone. Part of the problem here is that everyone is different, and we all have different personal boundaries. So it is clear that the moderators need to be clear in what is is acceptable and what is unacceptable.
The chat has never became a full-blown orgyfest like it is being is being displayed by the non-chatters of the forum. I respect people's need to express their opinions, this is what the thread is for, but to jump to conclusions is a shame. Some users in the chat have pushed their limits without knowing the boundaries, but they all backed off when asked to stop to my knowledge. Nothing has went too far, there is just a lack of understanding what the boundaries so far. To be frank, I am annoyed by the lack of tact in the posts here. Several chatters don't feel comfortable anymore now that this thread spiraled into chaos.
If the moderators want to remove the last three paragraphs in order to prevent any foreseeable future conflicts, they can and they have my consent. Either way, I am hoping that the whole thing doesn't scar the community too much. The damage is already done, and we don't need more of it. I am glad that new users still decided to check out the chat, regardless of this thread.
Moving on, I do believe that SooS needs a Term of Services of its own. It seems like our unwritten rules are slightly different than the ProBoards', and this need to be addressed in one central thread that is stickied and linked at the beginning of every chat session. At one of my old haunts, there used to be problems with unacceptable posts, until the moderators added a link at the bottom of every "post message" page with the text "By clicking on 'Post Reply,' you are hereby agreeing with the community's Terms of Services." Part of the reason for this change on that website was that most users only know the Terms of Services from the Registration page, and many has failed to read it before creating an account. I feel that employing the same technique will calm whatever conflict there might be in the chat, especially regarding new users who may or may not has known the unwritten rules of the chat itself.
If the community needs chat transcripts to bring back the spirit of the chat, then so be it. I will support trying to unite what we have left of the chat itself even if it means unnerving people with Internet paranoia. Before I was against the whole transcript out of fear that we might lose valuable members who has expressed they had problems with chat logs and forum posts being used against them, but now I can see that this thread has done a lot more damage than enabling the transcript feature. So, I will be a flip-flopper and run for the other camp regarding the transcript discussion.
I am glad that Celeste came into the chat and explained to us that it is a wise idea to keep the chat at a "Disney level," seeing that there are numerous nationalities here, each with their own different insensitivity to their society's issues. I was really starting to miss the British sense of humor prior to her coming in and trying to soothe everyone over. Thank you Celeste for saving the spirit of the chatroom before it was squished.
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Post by Script on Jul 3, 2009 19:43:00 GMT -5
Script: Example of NOT OK flirts: "Hey, anyone wanna see a picture of me vacuuming my bedroom in my underwear?"
Christmasshopper: I'd need a wide angle lens.
Rennie: I'd need an IMAX screen!
Edited To Add: Now that I've read the entire thread, I hope I wasn't being distasteful by my post. I was trying to inject some badly needed humor here. a couple of points *Script & Rennie are both nice 'church-going ladies'----yet both of us are now worried about being distasteful! *humour evidently isn't always evident *I think the hot-dry and/or cool-wet summer weather has started to take its toll on our collective nerves. I too spent some time in the chat room recently: where people chatted about the usual topics: how much fun it is to make the train whistle sound; what time to go and challenge; various greetings and kind remarks about health, doctoring, exercise; making breakfast-lunch-dinnerl what time is it where you are; etc. No, Noel Coward is not writing the witty dialogue; but then, neither is Hugh Hefner. Just a bunch of virtual friends cheering each other on. Once again I was touched by the mutual kindness and encouragement that is the hallmark of this site. Let us not blow anything out of proportion.
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Post by creativechaos on Jul 3, 2009 20:15:41 GMT -5
hi everyone; i am a frequent chatter and love chat! i get a lot of work done when i have a mind to; alone or with other chat challengers. sometimes i am not focused enough to work in there. sometimes i am uncomfortable by things that are said, and sometimes i probably make someone uncomfortable with things i say. welcome to the human race.
if i offend someone or have offended someone, please pm me with the details of how you feel and what in particular. please know i never intended harm, and won't do it again if i know about it. i can't do anything about what i don't know about. please also note: communication styles can be very different and can engender misunderstandings or bad feelings where none are meant.
i agree with cando; we need something posted and stickied both on the chat login and on the proboards main page someplace (for the newcomers) that details what our conduct is to be, on the main boards and on chat. and as suggested by souggy, perhaps even an sos policy, which we do have. it says no meanness, no judgmentalness, and no reminding people that their kids can go to cps because of their squalor. maybe we could sticky that in a noticeable place?
what disturbs me the most about all that i have read on this thread is when assumptions and accusations start flying, based on someone's own perceptions and filters. that almost always leads to strife and conflict and drama, and is based on triggers. when any of us is triggered, all rational thought goes out the window. it's never a good idea to confront someone when one is being triggered.
i banter a lot. i won't give y'all my litany of problems or what happened to me in life that sucked. we all have that stuff or we wouldn't be here.
if proboards is pg13, it might be appropriate to ask proboards itself to be a bit more specific about what that entails, and if that includes chatrooms, which kind of seem to be a separate entity. but i do agree with the people above that said no politics, religion, or sex should be bantered around or discussed in an attacking or judgmental way. and absolutely no bullying or slapping someone down. it would be good to know proboard's stance on discussing politics and religion as well as sex, as they all can get heated and nasty or alienate people.
because of reading this thread, i might be less likely to banter about certain subjects because i will never know if i'm offending or hurting someone. humorous bantering is the way i cope with profound depression. it can seem as if i laugh everything off. in real life i don't at all. this place is sometimes the only place i CAN laugh.
when we start dragging issues onto this board that don't belong here, and harsh judgments about them, it becomes a problem. when the guidelines are clear it's less of a problem. sure, we can self monitor, if we know exactly what is acceptable. and now we are all finding out, i am sure we will all do our part to abide by the guidelines.
thanks to those who pointed out our different sensitivities in different areas, because we are diverse. i will be more careful, but please if any of you get offended by me ~ don't attack me and assume you know my intent or motive, but ask me what i meant by something i say, and tell me why and how you got offended. i will listen, remember, and consciously work to not let it happen again.
for those of you who may not know, in chat, you can click on someone's name and chat with them privately in a little window. that is a good place to have more intimate and private discussions.
the bottom line is, we are a squalor group, here for a common purpose; to desqualor and learn to live different lives. as long as we keep the common purpose in the forefront, all will be well. as soon as we start taking offense at each other and reading things in that aren't intended, we are doomed as a group to have infighting, hurt feelings, and misunderstandings.
i love the banter. it may seem to a lot of you that all i do is banter. sometimes that is true. when i am so on my lips with depression and immobilization that i can't even go on, i come to chat and am usually lightened up by laughing with you all. i do this through humorous banter; yours and mine.
thank you christmasshopper and rennie for the humor. made me laugh! i think humor defuses "hot" triggers, but i guess even that is tricky. i don't recall having been on chat if someone was being bullied or shot down or i would have responded or left.
this is an eye opening discussion. lots to think about here.
as of right now, i vote for:
abiding by proboards registration policies.
putting anyone who is bullying, mean, conscending or judgmental of another on probation
chat logs, to be used only if conflicts arise
speaking to the mods, the offender, or some trusted member if you feel offended, in order to try to resolve it quickly and effectively and not let misunderstandings become grudges.
self monitoring, within reason.
i love this group and the people in it i have come to know and work with. i hope we can stay strong and united. cc
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Post by serenitynow on Jul 3, 2009 21:17:27 GMT -5
I see that there are some posters (and maybe others not posting) who feel that I have gone overboard and have expressed their concerns to the admin. I agree that it's not always easy to accurately interpret posts. What I'm afraid is happening here is what I feared- having watched this scene played out many times before. So I would like to take a very big breath- aaaahhhhhh- and continue in a "kinder,gentler" manner and then bow out gracefully-if that's possible. (Not permanently I hope,unless asked. Although that is my knee jerk reaction right now.) This group is VERY important to me. And clutter is something I've unfortunately been dealing with A LONG time- I was 54 in January. A long time. And one thing I've learned about clutter, and groups, and the quiet ones who so easily drop out when offended, is that it's best to clear up some things out front. Talking behind someone's back nearly always backfires. No one knows where they stand. With that in mind, I did address "b" publicly. I felt it was important and particularly so on this board where chaos runs our lives and we're struggling to be free of it. I don't think I gave the impression that the chat room was rolling in bawdiness. As I said, I have never been there ( What I haven't said is that computer challenged me hasn't been able to figure out how!) In fact when I read this thread, I didn't know who /what/when/how. In reading further, a pattern did develop..one I know all too well. We all know that squalor is only the outward manifestation of a troubled mind and it's no surprise that that often includes the gamut of abuse, many times sexual. I have seen firsthand and been privy to more horror stories than I would wish on Bin Laden. But I have also seen the fighting spirit of these survivors as well as the timid who fell through the cracks. And so I've become very protective of anyone struggling to get well. And when I read "b"'s first post my hackles went up. They were perpendicular after the second. I stand by what I said which was based on "b"'s words alone. "As a male, I caught a female who welcomed my nudity with curiosity." That, and the fact that he went on about it in spite of NOW knowing there were complaints and threw in smileys, showed a lack of consideration for his fellow "sisters". That lack was magnified in the second post in which said he would stop unless he found the conversation too ROFLMAO funny. Those words are not those of someone I'd feel "safe" around. And I'll reiterate. It's because of my CARING for this group, coupled with my experience with this same dynamic that prompted my strong reaction. So- please forgive the words but not the impulse. And now I promise to not hijack this thread a moment longer. Sincerely, Serenity NOW
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Post by bigtimetroubles on Jul 3, 2009 23:56:35 GMT -5
okay get well.....I asked at first if flirting was beyond TOS...that was real because I being male can be seen as a threat and have been seen as a threat as so stated so not nicely by some here. I gave the reason I wondered. If I have never had a situation in my life where I questioned my judgement of a situation that would be wrong. I questioned my judgement of that situation and flirting only. I have learned so much as I have read every post in this link. I am sorry that people have issues with making this discussion go south but if I did not then perhaps the same point I questioned my own judgement on might have occurred again. I am done with discussion.
I follow the PG guidelines and vote for TOS to be added to entry to chat.
I also vote for chat to remain un-moderated unless complaints warrant further motions on this front as many have issues with transcripting the chat. I want chat to remain friendly and comfortable for all Transcripting it would not allow that.
I feel that the decisions about who gets bounced off the board for what types of periods of time are entirely the dominion of the moderators and they have my support in any actions they feel are warrented given any ANY discussions on chat or off.
Had I even thought that flirtatious fun was good old fun I would never have asked about it in the first place. I know bounderies exist and that has been made perfectly clear since I brought the discussion up. I have learned alot about it and continue to feel I should never go there here for the sake of this safeplace for squalor which I am as committed to getting help for as any other member. not knowing what other things I have triggered in others I will stay out of chat room and just remain BTT.
If anyone wishes more on this PM me but shredding me as a diviant is odd way of not bullying someone who asked a simple question expecting a firm answer but not being attacked and labeled a sex offender.
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Post by gettingsomewhere on Jul 4, 2009 4:49:41 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I have been debating the merits of posting here for days now. Changing my mind each time. This morning I came to do this, but thought things seemed to be heading in a much nicer direction now and it would probably be best to just let things settle down. Well I guess that's not the case. I am so terribly sad at the way members here have been treated. I have discussed this matter with a number of members, either in private chat or via PMs and I can assure you that many of us have been disappointed. As some of you will be aware, I have been guilty of an inappropriate conversation with a number of others here, for which I have appologised more than once. At no time has anyone complained to me in person or via PM. And I have not heard from any of the mods, but being a reasonably astute person I realised I had overstepped previously unmentioned boundaries. I made the decision to appologise as promptly as possible and was assured I wasn't responsible for the current issues. Should be end of matter I would have thought. Not to be. Many days of no answers in chat followed. including from others who I know were also involved. Odd. So, I would just like to request that if any of you have a problem with any member please let them know. If you are not able to mention this yourself you can send a PM or ask a mod to pass on a message I am sure. It is unfair though to run a campaign of exclusion without at least advising that person that you would prefer not to communicate with them anymore. I have left this here in the hope that future problems with chat can be resolved in a more adult manner. After all, we are supposed to be adults. It's time for schoolyard antics and bullying to cease. Once again, I am sorry for any discomfort I may have caused anyone. This was never my intention. Nor was it the intention of other members bullied within this thread. Take care everyone and best of luck with your journey out of squalor. Chez x
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Post by lilith on Jul 4, 2009 5:00:04 GMT -5
BTT,
My brother, please don't let this keep you from chat. You need it as much as anyone. ANYTHING that will help you with squalor you need to do. I am also feeling "weird" about chat because of this situation. I feel for you as I think you have been treated very unfairly here. I am in chat everyday for many hours (the only ways I get anything done) and I have never seen you do anything wrong. If I had, I would have called you on it as I would do anyone because I am an adult. I would also comment AT THE MOMENT if I saw anything wrong being said to one of my on-line friends who might be shy or otherwise not inclined to stick up for themselves.
I was VERY against having a thread to address this topic. 99% of the time, in my opinion,chat has no problems other than folks who type too fast. I knew it would end up here mainly because folks who don't ever or only rarely come to chat would hear something and take it take out of context. I wasn't going to comment but your post broke my heart because it is so unfair to you. I didn't even know you were a man for a long time. I didn't want to give any energy to this witch-hunt as I have quite enough drama of my own without borrowing trouble, but I just couldn't let this post go unanswered because it is simply wrong and unjust in every way.
I know you must be hurt. In case you need to hear it, I am sorry for what has been done to you. I wish we could un-ring this bell but since that is impossible, I hope you can put this behind you and get back to what you're here for. You are an asset to this board.
For the record, my own history of being victimized by men began at the age of 5 when I was molested by my great-uncle while my grandfather watched and went on from there. I will spare you the details as they already play like a video in my head. I am now a 45 year old woman living with that legacy the best way I know how. I weigh 250 pounds, suffer from depression and live in a landfill. The legacy of pain is not lost on me, but I will not perpetuate my pain by causing pain in others.
I choose to embrace my ALL of my fellow humans, who, like me, are just doing the best they can. Please don't let this change you BTT. Now, go pick up some trash!!
Love, Lilith
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2009 6:18:51 GMT -5
Dear friends: this thread will now be locked. As some of the moderators are away for the holiday (July 4), we agreed ahead of time that the remaining mods were to take action as necessary. That time has now come. I have made a decision on our behalf: for the peace of mind of each and every one of us, myself included.
We have had much insightful discussion here. It is not easy for some of us to take a stand in areas that are inherently unpleasant: taking stock of our words and those of others. Much wisdom has been shared; personal stories referenced: all for the good.
At the same time, there comes a moment when Enuff Is Enuff. At some later date, the moderators will prepare a statement of what we know and believe that collectively we hold dear:
*reminding us to stick to PG13 content everywhere at SooS; *encouraging us to keep every interaction respectful and in the bounds of good taste; *remembering that a community of 1200+ members will always have a few moments of tension and disagreement; *and, as always holding fast to our conviction that We Will Survive ..... and move on from this current discomfort.
I have every confidence that we can continue in the peace and mutual support that is the HALLMARK of this web site. In my long years of involvement here and at Squalor Survivors, I have seen us collectively weather various storms. Today's discussion? This too shall pass......
My life has changed dramatically for the better thanks to my participation in these two boards. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to serve our community.
in the spirit of mutual respect, co-operation, and friendship xxoo from Script on behalf of the Mod Squad
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