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Post by Celeste on Jul 2, 2009 17:08:00 GMT -5
In this case, it would be California... according to the TOS.
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Post by serenitynow on Jul 2, 2009 18:18:38 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, Though I'm an infrequent poster, I've been around this board (and the previous one) for quite awhile now. And I've come to care about it- enough to voice my opinion here. I agree with Lioness and 60. Flirting has NOTHING to do with cleaning up or dealing with clutter. It is a DISTRACTION, AT BEST. Period. Humor/bantering DOES NOT have to be sexual which is, I feel, destructive to the purpose of (this) board. I've seen this in other self help groups where everyone is careful to tiptoe around the FEW who verge on going overboard. And it usually involves a male with many females who don't want to make waves or go overboard with "reverse discrimination". The male takes advantage of that and subtly plays them- enjoying the attention. It almost without exception divides and eventually breaks up the group, leaving everyone with a bitter taste in their mouth. Sexual comments disguised with humor is just that- sexual comments. Unnecessary. And even harmful to those who seek us out as a safe and healing forum. I agree with the other poster who pointed out that Big's comment about enjoying the stimulation/image is suspect. I know whereof I speak. I spent 5 years as manager of a major WSO for survivors of sexual abuse. Clutter was often brought up as a means of hiding and engendered much shame, frustration, and self-loathing among the "clients". It's roots run deep and dealing with it through sexual innuendo is SIMPLY NOT NEEDED. There's a difference between flirtations and humor and all of us adults know that difference. Those who overlook other's feelings ( after this has been brought out in the open) or feel the NEED (or right) to continue to engage in it should, perhaps, look toward other boards dealing with that. Those who are particularly sensitive and pick up on the underlying dynamics and subtle changes within the group are truly the canaries in the mine. They are not "too sensitive" or "need to get over it" They are seeking HELPFUL tools ( in an INCLUSIVE environment) to deal with ever present chaos. P.S. This is, of course, my opinion but it is a studied one. I have not been to chat but thought of it as a place where people could personally vent their frustrations and triumphs and receive helpful feedback . P.P.S. If the guidelines say no sexual content, than why is this even debatable? Still, I vote yes, yes, yes to humor but a resounding no! to name calling (even in jest), and flirtatious comments. Wendy..seeking serenity now!
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Smokey
New Member
Baltimore MD
Joined: March 2009
Posts: 68
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Post by Smokey on Jul 2, 2009 20:15:59 GMT -5
Script wrote a lot including:
"There is no way that the content or even the style of posting can be helpful to each and every member at every single moment of the day, 24/7, 365 days of the year. ... How far do we as a group want to go in establishing boundaries in our discussions? I encourage us to keep up this dialogue as we have much to learn from each other."
What I get from this thread is that the general issue is persistent harassment about any topic in Chat. Something that goes on (and on) over days. Something where a chatter tells some one "Stop It" and the other chatter will not drop it. Bullying is another word for it.
I don't want to have Chat logged or monitored on a routine basis . But if there is bullying going on I do thing the moderators should be alerted and do a little spot logging to check for themselves.
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Post by bigtimetroubles on Jul 3, 2009 5:45:01 GMT -5
yes yes yes....there has been all kinds of learning here. When I first posted that comment about flirting I really was referring to a post I made in chat after coming inside from lawn mowing and taking off all my clothes. I found that suddenly I was in a fully flirtatious situation when another took notice of my comment and made comment about it. I never had any intent except to say I was hotter than heck and needed to shed clothing to cool off. I did not activate my webcam I batted around with the appreciation of being a male in room of females. But remember I did not intend anything other than saying I was cooling by stripping off clothes as a comment of what was going on in my world. I being male caught the attention of a female who welcomed my nudity as a curiousity. I have never gotten into sexual harrassment with anyone here on chat or anywhere else. Believe me I know we are all sensitive. I can cross someones lines without knowing it and would approve of being told stop it and then stopping it would of course happen, unless I am Totally in a mood of ROFLAO and just couldn't stop due to the funnyness I was getting from things being said. I think I would take note of someone saying stop pretty easily, but someone never saying anything as Lioness has said happened and happens would lead me to stop when I felt that maybe my own sense of guilt kicked in. I have a consciense. I know may not be seen by some but it is there for sure. anyway I am glad I started a flow of conversation that has produced such strong feelings because as my first words here said YES YES YES I AM LEARNING SO MUCH
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Post by mish on Jul 3, 2009 6:13:23 GMT -5
I agree thoroughly with serenitynow. I, too, am a long time lurker, for many years, but due to unfortunate geography the few times I've been in chat there has only been one other person there (but it was nice to speak with you!).
I would hate to lose this place, which as so many have said is a one-of-a-kind. I love hearing about everyone's triumphs, even if I can't bring myself to post about myself after all this time.
While ordinarily I wouldn't pick on one poster in particular, I have to say that bigtimetroubles, smiley emoticons do not excuse the rest of your post - who on earth would come to a chat room (obviously on a discussion board mainly populated by women) and say they were nude? If you really lack the social skills and don't see what the problem is, all I can say is from now on just stick to talking about cleaning and decluttering and don't mention what anyone is wearing (or not).
And now I've probably gone too far myself, but I won't retract it. You all mean the world to me, and probably countless others who lurk, even though we can't tell you. And we don't want to lose this because of a few insensitive people.
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Post by Peach on Jul 3, 2009 11:26:48 GMT -5
I have been waiting for Bigtime to reenter this discussion. Now that he has, I am disappointed. He just doesn't get it. Neither do some of the female posters on this thread.
Bigtime made this statement in his 1 July post: "I consider flirtations fun and stimulating for myself to "imagine""
To me, that is creepy.
To use an analogy - We were a school of fish with a shark waiting to strike. Now, the predator has been flushed out and he admits it.
In his most recent post today, he does not apologize or show remorse. Instead, we are given smiley faces. Particularly offensive is the laughing emoticon following the webcam statement.
When I previously stated that anyone who violated the TOS should be banned immediately, it was directed at such individuals as Bigtime. How else can we as a community deal with someone who admits he is using us to "imagine"?
Upon more reflection, I would amend my ban criteria to read: Give the offending party a warning first. If the violation reoccurs, then ban the person. The only exception would be someone who admits to being a predator. In that case, an immediate ban would be in order.
A shark still needs to feed on the fish no matter what he/she might say.
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Jul 3, 2009 11:42:11 GMT -5
Ok--I can't speak to the original conversation, but BTT post appeared to be an attempt to show he didn't intend to make othe chatter uncomfortable, that he understands that the chat stepped over the line, and that he will modify his behavior in the future. Sound reasonable enough to me.
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Post by serenitynow on Jul 3, 2009 13:40:28 GMT -5
I truly thought I had had my say. This newest post by bigtimetrouble,however,reaches out to the crux of the matter and so I will address him-publicly- on this forum. Bigtimetroubles, Your post is one huge red flag. I agree with Misha- smiley emoticons DO NOT excuse the rest of your post. They are merely "a cover" for the same ole, same ole. I'm now convinced that it's not that you "don't get it". You do. And you just threw it back in our faces. Members are finding the topic of nudity and flirtation triggering and inappropriate in a board on CLUTTER. Yet your whole post was about stating and RE-STATING IT- under the guise of an explanation no less! Your choice of words and the WAY you write them brings to mind a cat licking its lips, toying with a "catch" back and forth between its paws WITH A SMILE ON ITS FACE. Your statement, " I being a male "caught" the attention of a female who WELCOMED MY NUDITY as a CURIOSITY" is disgusting and offensive. It also subtly implys that females who DON'T "welcome your nudity" may just be a tad prudish..tsk tsk. Not only outrageously inappropriate but sexualizing members on this board! It is not that you "know we are sensitive", its just that you don't CARE. Your post is cluttered with YOU!! " I would "approve" (!) of being told to stop it UNLESS (I) am "Totally" in a mood of ROFLMAO and just "couldn't" stop due to the funnyness I WAS GETTING from things being said". In other words,"I'll stop if "I" deign it appropriate..and "I" wanna"! If you're asked to stop because you're crossing boundaries- you STOP! If you are indeed the REAL thing, you apologize or go elsewhere for your "funnies". "It would lead me to stop when (I) felt that MAYBE MY OWN SENSE OF GUILT would kick in." MAYBE YOUR OWN SENSE OF GUILT has nothing to do with it. "I have a conscience. I know it may not be seen by some" A twisted slap! "Yes,yes,yes (I) am learning so much" No, you're not. You're deliberately twisting words out of their original context to suit you and cleverly derail the topic of non-sexual humor. And the kicker.. " ANYWAY (which NEGATES all that went before it) (I) am GLAD (I) STARTED a flow of conversation that has produced such strong feelings"!! BINGO! EXACTLY what I was concerned about! You are actually enjoying the fact that you've managed to stir things up- almost as if you're getting off on it and the resulting attention.. Bigtimetroubles- your entire post was passive aggressive and taunting. An "I am truly sorry that I offended members and I'll be careful not to do it again " followed by A FROWNIE would have sufficed- but that would not have garnered the sense of power you're seeking through being the center of attention. Very strong words,I know. They are needed in this case to EXPOSE what's going on here.( And clutter IS about getting down to the core.) I have seen your kind before and the damage you do FOR YOUR OWN PLEASURE, while feigning innocence, has wreaked havoc on many a strong community. It has even resulted in groups banning men which would truly be a shame here :' There are other places to go to fish for strokes.
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Post by cando on Jul 3, 2009 14:24:27 GMT -5
I hate what is happening here on this thread now.
There are rules, we know them now, people are sensitive, we are all different....
Let's get back to suggestions rather than attacking and taking apart each other's posts.
I still vote for a screen that comes up when you click on "chat" that briefly states the rules. If that is possible... One that you "click" accepting the rules before entering chat... Is something like that even possible?
I've forgotten what other suggestions have been made... Guess I need to go back and re-read this thread. CD
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Post by serenitynow on Jul 3, 2009 15:38:42 GMT -5
I also hate what's happening to this group. That's PRECISELY why I've taken the time and effort ( I'm a hunt and peck typer and my last post was accidentally deleted so I had to start over by scratch) to distinctly itemize the MANY offensive statements made by bigtimetroubles which show his true lack of remorse and worse- his admission(!) that he will continue to upset others if asked to stop- but feels he can't (won't) if it tickles his funny bone! That statement ALONE should ban him from the board.
Alas, I'm seeing the same pattern going down here that I,unfortunately, have witnessed WAY too many times before. ONE individual ends up pitting member against member and the MESSENGER gets shot! An offender ( going by HIS words) is given credence over the safety and protection of the whole under the framework of "Lets all get along". But I say, "Let's form a protective circle around the healing light of the fire in the center( recovery and safety) and keep the wolves at bay"...because like it or not, the downward spiral has begun.
I do agree with you about posting terms to prevent exposing members from happening
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Post by serenitynow on Jul 3, 2009 15:45:55 GMT -5
In the last line, I meant to say to keep this from happening again.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 15:53:37 GMT -5
I did not take BTT's post to be of any kind of mocking as if he is a predator and I feel that is a really strong accusation, remember you cannot convey tone while writing on the board. Also not everyone in the world writes the same, I write how I speak in the real world i'm scottish and appear very blunt while typing as others cannot hear how I say things, so I tend to not imply how a person is saying anything online as its not fair and most likely never accurate.
He explained that he did not mean the things he said to be offensive and that what he said was harmless, and that if he was a woman there would be no problem, which is true.
I am just sooo shocked of what has been said of BTT and that his post is being picked apart, my PM to the mods was not about the content of chat but I was appauled at how some members treat others here... I am distraught to think that hurtful words to that extent could be thrown around willy nilly and publicly. Have you all maybe considered that you are wrong? and how every other personon this board will now percieve one of our friends? Accusations like these should ofc be taken seriously but they should not be made public to stage a witch hunt!
I will not be privy to this disscusion anymore if its going to turn into a place where people come to be hanged!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2009 16:02:37 GMT -5
serenity now in fact chat has been perfect for a long time everything has blown over and noone seems to have a problem now, especially after celeste post here and speaking with her in chat. This is all doing way more damage than the few incidents and I feel we've all learned from this.
We can never please everyone but should try, and that those who are very sensitive to come forward as you can't expect everyone to mind read and to also keep chat at pg-13 these are the rules and now everyone knows what they are and I'm sure they will be followed.
This posts makes it sound like the chat regulars are dirty super sexed adolescents, this is just not true.. this has all gone way too far now and it really being blown up and now the problem is the board.
I feel its time to let this board die we all now know the TOS and we will be ofc following it. There as others have said should really be no disscusion we have to follow the rules from now and I believe they have!
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Post by eagle on Jul 3, 2009 16:11:48 GMT -5
As one of your friendly admins, I am asking that everyone take a moment to breathe deeply and slowly a few times (unless your respiratory condition will not allow this, then please meditate along with us at your own calming pace). Then please ask yourself how you would like to be treated and be as kind to others here as you would like them to be to you. Please be kind. Please be thoughtful. Please refrain from angry outbursts. Please be sensitive to others. The tone of this discussion has become rather unkind and some hostility and defensivenes is seeping into our community. More than one member has contacted the mods requesting that we put an end to this type of behavior, not only in chat, but in the discussion on this thread. I would like to suggest that the welfare of the community has to come first before each of us as individuals. Although I value each of you very deeply, it is my responsibility as an admin here to work toward ensuring the welfare of the community. It is to that end that we even began this discussion. Now that the discussion has deteriorated as much as it has, some here have concerns that our community is in jeopardy. Please do not let that happen to us. We need each other and we need to be able to trust each other. It is apparent that a few of you feel that we need to compose some guidelines or at least link to the proboards terms of service for members entering chat. And some of you have stated you want chat logs to be saved for a limited time with the sole intent of investigating possible member complaints about other members inapppropriate behavior in chat. And some of you have stated that you want us to implement a banning procedure for infractions. All of these are valid suggestions. Therefore, I would like to ask that the following replies direct themselves to discussion of those specific topics or suggestions that would further a solution rather than finger pointing at or raging against any particular members on the open forums. If you have a complaint about a particular member, please use the "Report Post" option for a particular post made by said member, or send a PM to the mod team via this link and give specifics of your complaint.
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Post by howardsgirlfriend on Jul 3, 2009 16:45:56 GMT -5
Well said, Eagle.
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